"The first fascist movement to come to power, Italian fascism, did so in a country that was 99 per cent Catholic and the seat of the papacy, and 'clerical fascist' movements came to power in another two overwhelmingly Catholic countries, the first Slovak Republic and the Croatian Independent State. Fascist movements and regimes in other European countries also entered into relations with the Roman Catholic Church, and in broader terms, many Catholics, individually and collectively, were closely involved with fascist movements and regimes in the inter-war years. This article analyses the complex relationships between fascism, the institutional church, and Catholics more generally. It examines the initial attitudes of fascist movements to Catholicism/the Catholic Church, the encounter between fascism and Catholicism, and the interests and common enemies that brought them together in this encounter."
- John Pollard, "Fascism and Catholicism"
The Oxford Handbook of Fascism
http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199594788.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199594788-e-10

"Fascism is another word for the Catholic right-wing."
- Christopher Hitchens


"The advice given by the Pope to individual Catholics and to nations should be remembered, for during the following decade [after WW1] that emphasis on the necessity for strengthening authority, on the blind obedience owed by subjects, and on the duty of everyone not to allow difference of wealth and social ideology (i.e. Socialism) to incite class struggle, was to become the slogan of Fascist Totalitarianism."
- Avro Manhattan, 1947
The Catholic Church Against the Twentieth Century, p.68

Clerical fascism - combines religious elements with fascism, support by religious organizations for fascism, or fascist regimes in which clergy play a leading role.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

Do you have any sources on the relation of Catholicism to fascism?

"The lines between Protestantism and Catholicism have become blurred by ecumenism. Today, Protestants stand for very little that can be truly called Protestantism. The Counter Reformation by the Catholic Church, for the most part, has achieved its goals."

"Today, Protestants stand for very little that can be truly called Protestantism."

That's a pretty strong claim. What is true Protestantism?

Did I just stumble into all night AM radio or something?

I don't think that's the case in reformed circles, or at least that wasn't my experience.

There is almost an allergy towards spiritual discipline or "works" for fear that it will lead to a false understanding of salvation.

So the most serious Christians in that tradition (from what I saw) end up pouring ALL of their energy into Bible study or systematic theology.

It seems like in evangelical settings all of the effort goes into converting others.

Either way spiritual discipline and development gets short shrift because in those theological frameworks it doesn't matter at all.

But that was my experience, mileage may vary depending on church and denomination.

I tried to listen to the counter reformation video and the guy was talking so slow that I fell asleep.


OP, what denomination of church do you attend?

Gator03 said:

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I don't think that's the case in reformed circles, or at least that wasn't my experience.

There is almost an allergy towards spiritual discipline or "works" for fear that it will lead to a false understanding of salvation.

So the most serious Christians in that tradition (from what I saw) end up pouring ALL of their energy into Bible study or systematic theology.

It seems like in evangelical settings all of the effort goes into converting others.

Either way spiritual discipline and development gets short shrift because in those theological frameworks it doesn't matter at all.

But that was my experience, mileage may vary depending on church and denomination.

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I think the Reformed would likely not have these issues because they go towards monergism in all aspects of their faith. That tends to shield them pretty well.

You are right though. It's in the evangelicalism where things get more interesting and where I think the statement becomes more valid. The irony is they likely don't even realize it becuase as you point out, they are shallow in their theological development which leads to these problems.

What you highlight (and is a frustration) that I have as well is the term Protestantism. It gets applied so widely nowadays that it clutters the discussion because there's always an outlier under this header to use as an exception to the rule.

To what degree do you think the counter-reformation succeeded?

Cardinal Thomas Wolsey characterized the project as to put "learning against learning."

"The mysteries of religion must be kept in the hands of prieststhe secret and arcanum of church government. Nothing remains more to be done than to prevent further apostasy. For this purpose, since printing could not be put down, it were best to set up learning against learning."
- Lord Herbert recounting Wolsey addressing the pope, quoted by Isaac D'Israeli

"The social psychologists of the future will have a number of classes of school children on whom they will try different methods of producing an unshakable conviction that snow is black."
- Bertrand Russell explaining Johann Fichte's philosophy

Have you encountered the phrase "learning without learning" already? It describes how the counter-reformation was continued through education and publishing. The quotes by Isaac D'Israeli and Johann Fichte confirm that Thomas Wolsey's idea was still relevant 300 years later.

How much does the counter-reformation continue today? In addition to education and publishing, other media formats also are used as means to achieve counter-reformation goals.

And to what degree do you think the inquisition never ended?

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition. The use of torture openly without apology is how the inquisition operated and how the military operates now, an indication that Rome is still in control.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-spanish-inquisition-made-in-america-2/5429677

Plan-o-menon said:

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Do you have any sources on the relation of Catholicism to fascism?

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Lots of political science literature on this topic, beginning with Alfred Stepan, Philippe Schmitter and Guillermo O'Donnell.

There are similarities, but fascism has a strong strand of technophilia and futurism and is ultimately materialist, so it doesn't hold with Catholic social teaching.

Gator03 said:

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There are similarities, but fascism has a strong strand of technophilia and futurism and is ultimately materialist, so it doesn't hold with Catholic social teaching.

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There are different flavors of fascism, you can consider Francoist Spain a fascist state, and that was extremely Catholic, so much so it was practically a Corporate Theocracy with power shared by state and church.

Redstone said:

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Fascism is of the Right because it is against egalitarianism.

However, it is also futurist, modernist, and materialist - and, according to Italian and German fascists (who disagreed a lot), the founders of the movements and ideology, SPECIFIC TO PEOPLE, PLACE, AND TIME - THEIRS.

The Apostolic faiths (Catholic, Orthodox) worship the Logos in the Sacraments, not the state.

So.

They made some accommodations, but comparisons are ridiculous.

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You need to get on this train

And yes I know about the Iron Guard, Franco, ect

Well, Franco was hedging both sides.

And there was as well a lot of LARP in the Orthodox East, and also plenty of committed to both, but context is always important, especially context of shared enemies such as Turks, various other ethnicities, Communists, Western liberalism, especially

I correspond with EMJ and have all his stuff

Very highly recommended

Redstone said:

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I correspond with EMJ and have all his stuff

Very highly recommended

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I have been trying to find him but I think he is busy doing interviews and the like. I would like to hire him to do a presentation for my prelature.

You should also check out Ferrara

Are there any replies to the explanations of fascism forming in line with Catholicism by John Pollard and Avro Manhattan?

Are there any replies to the explanations of the counter-reformation being about "learning against learning" made by D'Israeli, Fichte, and Wolsey?

Plan-o-menon said:

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Are there any replies to the explanations of fascism forming in line with Catholicism by John Pollard and Avro Manhattan?

Are there any replies to the explanations of the counter-reformation being about "learning against learning" made by D'Israeli, Fichte, and Wolsey?

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Learning against learning is self explanatory, the most dangerous thing to a person's soul is the Bible and their individual interpretation thereof. The Bible is useless without the magisterium and proper hermeneutic lens by which to understand it by. Individual interpretation of scripture has lead to the mess you see of modern protestantism, instead of 1 Pope, millions, each contradicting each other, and the teachings of those that formed the Church.

I am unfamiliar with Pollard and Manhattan but see no real issue saying why Catholicism and Fascism have been linked in the past.

I'm familiar with Liberty and Fatima works. I like the stuff just fine but tend to agree with Ann Barnhardt about some of it.
EMJ will email you back if you reach out.

As for links, of course there were. If I were a Romanian, for example, I might well have joined the Iron groups.
Why.
When historians in the 1990s used the word "Bloodlands" to describe E. Europe, 1914-1945, it was with very good reason - context of communism and anti-communism. Same reason why so many Catholics supported Franco for some time, and then not, and then lukewarm, and then ferociously not (Basques).

Context.

Who will let me worship? Who will steal my farm? Who will murder my family?

We don't face anything like this, do we?

"The SS had been organized by Himmler according to the principles of the Jesuit Order. The rules of service and spiritual exercises prescribed by Ignatius de Loyola constituted a model which Himmler strove carefully to copy. Absolute obedience was the supreme rule; every order had to be executed without comment." Walter Schellenberg, Chief of the S.D., counter-espionage, and was close to Himmler.

Quoted by Edmund Paris, on page 253 in his 1964 book The Vatican Against Europe, cites "Le chef du contre-espionnage nazi parle" (Julliard, Paris 1957, pp. 23 and 24.)


http://historiayverdad.org/Babilonia/the-vatican-against-europe-edmond-paris.pdf

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6092003



https://www.reddit.com/r/romerules

"Hitler is a product of the Catholic Church." Leo Herbert Lehmann, Behind the Dictators A factual analysis of the relationship of Nazi-Fascism and Roman Catholicism, 1944, http://bit.do/Catholic-Hitler

I really don't like this new hobby of yours.

"Hitler is a product of the Catholic Church." Leo Herbert Lehmann, Behind the Dictators A factual analysis of the relationship of Nazi-Fascism and Roman Catholicism, 1944, http://bit.do/Catholic-Hitler

Himmler was trained by Jesuits. In 1919, at age 19, Himmler decided to become a Jesuit priest, enrolling at the Munich Technische Hochschule, and graduating as a full Jesuit Priest no later than 1925.

The Catholic Center Party Trail Blazer of Hitler by James J. Murphy https://archive.org/details/TheCatholicCenterParty--TrailBlazerOfHitlerJ.J.Murphy