Immigration Idealism

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RAB91
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Here's a long ready on the immigration debate from a religious perspective. It talks about how religious idealism is driving the immigration discussion within church circles (similar to what it did for pacifism in the past).

Quote:

We have succumbed to immigration idealismto the vague hope that we can live in a world free of conflict and violence, in which authorities need not bear the sword, and neighbors need not build fences. This view, like the pacifism to which it is related, dreams of an unfallen world. "No more death! No more exploitation!" Pope Francis exclaimed during a Mass at the U.S.-Mexico border in 2016. He was echoing Pope Paul VI's declaration before the United Nations in 1965, "Never again war, never again war!" These statements express our highest aspirations; in them we have a summary of paradise. But we were long ago expelled from paradise, and pretending otherwise will make our world into a closer approximation of hell.

Immigration idealism has less in common with the Christian faith than with sentimental liberalism. "In this liberalism," wrote Niebuhr, "there is little understanding of the depth to which human malevolence may sink and the heights to which malignant power may rise. Some easy and vapid escape is sought from the terrors and woes of a tragic era." Though they invoked the gospel, what pacifists really believed in was the Enlightenment myth wherein man "needs only to return to the order, harmony, justice, equality and equanimity of nature" to escape "the disasters of history."
Quote:

A just immigration policy will recognize that whereas the Church welcomes all comers, no nation can. It will insist that migration policy give preference to those who share the history, culture, and creed of the welcoming nation. It will recognize that those who are, by reason of history and belief, hostile to the host culture cannot really aspire to join it. European states should not forget that they are, in Pierre Manent's phrase, societies "of a Christian mark," impressed with an indelible character. The same is true of America.

Above all, a more realistic immigration policy will recognize that not everyone can or should be admitted to any political community. Despite what some seem to believe, neither the United States nor Europe is a Celestial City from which no weary pilgrim can be turned away. Sentimentality about migration should be rejected as firmly as anti-migrant bigotry.

While advocating realistic and Christian migration policies, the Church must not forget that the most important migration is that of souls into heaven. In Exsul Familia Nazarethana, Pope Pius XII speaks of the need to "provide all possible spiritual care for pilgrims, aliens, exiles and migrants of every kind." He praises the Church's long history of care for migrants, including the Catholic colonizers of the New World. (Pius's view is not easily reconciled with today's sentimentalities.) According to the Pew Forum, 19 percent of the foreign-born, Hispanic adults living in the United States have given up their Catholic faithhalf before they arrived, half after. These are souls lost at sea, spiritual migrants stopped at the border between earth and heaven.
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/05/immigration-idealism
UTExan
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You cannot help but feel for the situation of those who seek a better life and are willing to risk personal safety to reach the US. But they have no realistic chance of achieving asylum as refugees. It would be better if we conceived the border as a much more effective filter where the interests of humanitarianism, sound immigration policy enforcement and our country's economic interests all merge.

I visualize a chain of immigration cantonments along the southern border to receive, identify, house, screen and process potential immigrants. First consideration is that we need immigration and the entry level labor it provides. Since these immigrants are used to living much more austerely than most Americans, we can house them in cheap, but sturdy Quonset-type structures in these cantonments as family units with each family unit deciding how it will support itself. They ideally would be able to spend about 2-6 weeks in these facilities until they obtained a family/business/church sponsor which would post a $1,000 surety bond with CBP for each family member. In exchange, the potential immigrant who had passed security, medical and background check would sign a document promising not to receive/expect public welfare or social security benefits and receive a permanent permit to work in the US, revocable only upon conviction of specified criminal /civil offenses. They would be free to purchase housing, make civil contracts and enjoy all benefits of living as a free citizen other than voting rights and expectation of welfare benefits until they apply for and become citizens. They receive the benefit of a safe, prosperous, society in which to live and the ability to achieve citizenship if they wish through work, saving and investment. And they fill a vital role in our economy in filling jobs traditionally held by newer immigrants. Immigrants not able to post a surety bond and without ready employment could work out of the cantonment as a day laborer in the border area.
Basically, my plan is the old bracero program with built-in medical, security and background checks where biometrics such as DNA, fingerprint and iris scans are performed to insure identity. I will be honest: I prefer Christian immigrants from Central America who will mainstream within a generation or two. Immigrants from India do well also as do those from certain parts of west Africa. And certain Middle Eastern immigrants also do very well. I am less optimistic about those from insular, clannish societies such as the Somalis.
Texaggie7nine
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Comparing mass immigration of refugees and 3rd world country immigrants to a church being open to all souls is not a just comparison.

Would a church be open to having members who keep to their own groups, activly seek to undermine and oust church leadership from the get go, consider all current church members to be guilty of oppression and subject to being treated as such, look to exploit the kindness and chaity of the church in every possible way and demand free handouts whenever they are left wanting; and all this while STILL refusing to believe in Jesus being the son of God?

This would be more analogous.
7nine
ScottishFire
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AG
Texaggie7nine said:

Comparing mass immigration of refugees and 3rd world country immigrants to a church being open to all souls is not a just comparison.

Would a church be open to having members who keep to their own groups, activly seek to undermine and oust church leadership from the get go, consider all current church members to be guilty of oppression and subject to being treated as such, look to exploit the kindness and chaity of the church in every possible way and demand free handouts whenever they are left wanting; and all this while STILL refusing to believe in Jesus being the son of God?

This would be more analogous.
We agree on this completely.
diehard03
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Quote:

Would a church be open to having members who keep to their own groups, activly seek to undermine and oust church leadership from the get go, consider all current church members to be guilty of oppression and subject to being treated as such, look to exploit the kindness and chaity of the church in every possible way and demand free handouts whenever they are left wanting; and all this while STILL refusing to believe in Jesus being the son of God?

I'd say this mischaracterization of the average immigrant. I am sure it's true of a vocal minority.

I think it's also true that the average immigrant wants to "join the congregation and fit in because they were told that the church is the hope of the world..but when they got there, they were treated like scum."
PacifistAg
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AG
diehard03 said:

Quote:

Would a church be open to having members who keep to their own groups, activly seek to undermine and oust church leadership from the get go, consider all current church members to be guilty of oppression and subject to being treated as such, look to exploit the kindness and chaity of the church in every possible way and demand free handouts whenever they are left wanting; and all this while STILL refusing to believe in Jesus being the son of God?

I'd say this mischaracterization of the average immigrant. I am sure it's true of a vocal minority.

I think it's also true that the average immigrant wants to "join the congregation and fit in because they were told that the church is the hope of the world..but when they got there, they were treated like scum."
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

I'd say this mischaracterization of the average immigrant. I am sure it's true of a vocal minority.

Legal immigrants, absolutely untrue about them.
Illegal immigrants and refugees, you have a much higher percentage that fit that description. Of course it is not nearly as bad here as it is in Europe where there is far less ground and water to cover to get there from these refugee producing countries.


Quote:

I think it's also true that the average immigrant wants to "join the congregation and fit in because they were told that the church is the hope of the world..but when they got there, they were treated like scum."

I can't speak towards european nations, but here in the US, this 'treated like scum' is a complete fabrication.
7nine
dermdoc
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AG
PacifistAg said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Would a church be open to having members who keep to their own groups, activly seek to undermine and oust church leadership from the get go, consider all current church members to be guilty of oppression and subject to being treated as such, look to exploit the kindness and chaity of the church in every possible way and demand free handouts whenever they are left wanting; and all this while STILL refusing to believe in Jesus being the son of God?

I'd say this mischaracterization of the average immigrant. I am sure it's true of a vocal minority.

I think it's also true that the average immigrant wants to "join the congregation and fit in because they were told that the church is the hope of the world..but when they got there, they were treated like scum."

Man, where do y'all go to church? That is not my experience at any of the churches I have attended. In fact, the churches are the ones out helping. And I would say that most immigrants are somewhere between the two extremes depicted on here, kind of half turd/half sympathetic victim.
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dermdoc
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AG
Texaggie7nine said:

Quote:

I'd say this mischaracterization of the average immigrant. I am sure it's true of a vocal minority.

Legal immigrants, absolutely untrue about them.
Illegal immigrants and refugees, you have a much higher percentage that fit that description. Of course it is not nearly as bad here as it is in Europe where there is far less ground and water to cover to get there from these refugee producing countries.


Quote:

I think it's also true that the average immigrant wants to "join the congregation and fit in because they were told that the church is the hope of the world..but when they got there, they were treated like scum."

I can't speak towards european nations, but here in the US, this 'treated like scum' is a complete fabrication.
Totally agree. Lots of projection in this thread.
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PacifistAg
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AG
dermdoc said:

PacifistAg said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

Would a church be open to having members who keep to their own groups, activly seek to undermine and oust church leadership from the get go, consider all current church members to be guilty of oppression and subject to being treated as such, look to exploit the kindness and chaity of the church in every possible way and demand free handouts whenever they are left wanting; and all this while STILL refusing to believe in Jesus being the son of God?

I'd say this mischaracterization of the average immigrant. I am sure it's true of a vocal minority.

I think it's also true that the average immigrant wants to "join the congregation and fit in because they were told that the church is the hope of the world..but when they got there, they were treated like scum."

Man, where do y'all go to church? That is not my experience at any of the churches I have attended. In fact, the churches are the ones out helping. And I would say that most immigrants are somewhere between the two extremes depicted on here, kind of half turd/half sympathetic victim.
I took the comment, not as actually about church, but using church as a metaphor for our society. Not that they are rejected and treated like scum in church, but in society. That the average immigrant wants to join our country and fit in, but when they got here, they were treated like scum.
dermdoc
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AG
I do not see that at all sorry. But I believe in borders.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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