Fasting and the spiritual life

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Zobel
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AG
There was a thread about the Holy Spirit and the Fathers earlier. But I was thinking about something - there's something the fathers are absolutely unanimous on, and that is that fasting is mandatory and the bedrock or beginning of the spiritual life. Many fathers have written that you must guard your stomach, that food is a cause of problems for people.

Christ gives three imperatives during the sermon on the mount - when you fast, when you pray, when you give alms or do acts of mercy. He fasted, the Apostles fasted, the early church certainly fasted, fasts were part of worship in the OT.

If the fathers are right, should we be surprised that a church that does not fast in some cases at all would have shallow spiritual roots?
diehard03
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Quote:

If the fathers are right, should we be surprised that a church that does not fast in some cases at all would have shallow spiritual roots?

I don't disagree that we miss fasting as spiritual discipline. However, I think the real cause of shallow spiritual roots isn't underemphasis of any one thing, but rather the presentation of the church setting as a gift to the non-believer/new person. I think there's a lot of good intentions that teaching a message to people that we shouldn't be teaching.

Note: I would say it is more a baptist/non-denom problem than one of mainline denominations.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
In regards to fasting specifically, I think you're right. Your results may vary, but I know I'm more productive when fasting and it's easier to control my physical temptations. It's not altogether pleasant, but that's probably the point.

I think there is a bigger story here though. When I was teaching Sunday school I was often asked why prayer seems to be ineffective, and I always had the same answer. Ready 2 Samuel, especially Chapter 24. David wants to dedicate the threshing floor to be the site of God's Temple, and the current owner offers to give it to David. David refuses and insists on paying, saying he wouldn't offer something to God that didn't cost him anything. That's basically what most of us do with our prayers. We offer thanks and ask for favors without any personal sacrifice whatsoever. I always told people to show God how important something is with actions, and the most classic version of this is fasting. Charitable giving, a period of chastity, and charitable works were also common used as adjuncts to prayer. That doesn't mean God will do what you want, but it a bit insulting IMHO to only offer God a few second prayer and consider that an appropriate devotion or entreaty.
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Bird Poo
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AG
This is a good topic--especially as I consider how I've strayed from my commitments during Lent!
dermdoc
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

If the fathers are right, should we be surprised that a church that does not fast in some cases at all would have shallow spiritual roots?

I don't disagree that we miss fasting as spiritual discipline. However, I think the real cause of shallow spiritual roots isn't underemphasis of any one thing, but rather the presentation of the church setting as a gift to the non-believer/new person. I think there's a lot of good intentions that teaching a message to people that we shouldn't be teaching.

Note: I would say it is more a baptist/non-denom problem than one of mainline denominations.
I am confused. Are you talking about the "production" and music aspect of the service to get non believers to church?
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dermdoc
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AG
And I fasted before having to talk to a dying friend recently and it helped me focus more on the Spirit. And I have no problem with fasting. But I keep remembering "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." If fasting helps you show mercy, great. If you are doing it as a ritual or forced behavior, it is not bad but not necessary imho.
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Zobel
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AG
My godfather was talking about this with me - specifically the parable of the tower builder and the wise king in Luke.

The truth of the gospel is when you say - how much sacrifice is required? The answer is "all of it". Does a tithe under the Law apply to a Christian? No - a Christian's "tithe" is the whole thing. How much is enough? Nothing is enough, it's your whole life.

I think those two examples in the parable are perhaps the most difficult and also paradoxically the most liberating in the gospel. Enough is all, even your life, and once you do that the load is light.
Zobel
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AG
It is as necessary for a Christian as acts of mercy or prayer. Those are the three things Christ assumes we are doing as human beings in the sermon on the mount.

But I was really framing it as - why do we care about what the fathers say about the witness of the Holy Spirit if were not also going to listen to them about the most basic elements of Christian life? Prayer, fasting, almsgiving (or acts of mercy).

The Lord desires mercy, not sacrifice. Yes. But that calls into question what the sacrifice is. If the sacrifice is the act of fasting, then yes, as He says you have received your reward in full. If the sacrifice is yourself, your self-denial instead to seek Him and His will, then the reward is Him, it's life.

Fasting is not the end but a means to the end. And the end is what matters - if the end is death to self and life in Christ, it is unquestionably good.
dermdoc
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AG
Agree.
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diehard03
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Quote:

I am confused. Are you talking about the "production" and music aspect of the service to get non believers to church?

Yes and no, depending on how you are defining "production". I think well done worship music by individuals who know their role is a blessing towards God so I am all for this. I think the "belonging before believing" that is a popular church strategy is the problem.

I know this seems like a bizarre tangent and I accept this. I just see a lack of fasting as the symptom of this problem rather than it being the problem itself.
Zobel
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AG
Growing up in a Baptist church fasting was never, ever a thing. When I was a young adult they started talking now and again about the Daniel fast like a fad thing or fasting before making big decisions. Then, come to Orthodoxy and fasting - and asceticism in general - is just a totally normal and unremarkable part of life. The difference is jarring. So I just I suppose was mulling on the why.

And sure, yeah, I guess I also want to know why people don't fast, when the scriptures and tradition are both clear.
diehard03
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And sure, yeah, I guess I also want to know why people don't fast, when the scriptures and tradition are both clear.

I think the answer is that everyone has a limit to where they stop following Jesus and food is an important thing about a person.

The power behind it is what makes people not do it, basically.
Zobel
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AG
I mean.. it's like step one.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

And sure, yeah, I guess I also want to know why people don't fast, when the scriptures and tradition are both clear.
It's been said ad nauseum here before, but many people go to church purely for comfort. The routine, the hymns, asking for prayers for sick relatives or bad economic situation, pot lucks, Easter eggs hunts, and on and on certainly give people a sense of community. Even a small amount of tithing can make people feel better about themselves. For a lot of people that's all they want.

You can't explain the importance of fasting, or any kind of asceticism, to someone like that. As far as they are concerned church exists to make their life better, more comfortable, and to make them feel better about themselves. Fasting is unpleasant and difficult, and it doesn't make sense in that mindset.
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diehard03
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I'm not sure I would agree with that, unless I am misunderstanding "step 1". I think having mercy, forgiving others, etc would all be above fasting...if there is such a thing as an order.
diehard03
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Quote:

It's been said ad nauseum here before, but many people go to church purely for comfort. The routine, the hymns, asking for prayers for sick relatives or bad economic situation, pot lucks, Easter eggs hunts, and on and on certainly give people a sense of community. Even a small amount of tithing can make people feel better about themselves. For a lot of people that's all they want.

You can't explain the importance of fasting, or any kind of asceticism, to someone like that. As far as they are concerned church exists to make their life better, more comfortable, and to make them feel better about themselves. Fasting is unpleasant and difficult, and it doesn't make sense in that mindset.

I think my initial point is that churches are partly responsible in creating this atmosphere.
Zobel
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AG
The fathers say you really can't do any of that if you're not engaging in self denial. Christ says deny yourself, take up your cross, follow Me. Self abegnation is step one, and fasting is a first step in that. I think controlling what you put in your mouth is much easier than loving an enemy as yourself.
diehard03
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The fathers say you really can't do any of that if you're not engaging in self denial. Christ says deny yourself, take up your cross, follow Me. Self abegnation is step one, and fasting is a first step in that. I think controlling what you put in your mouth is much easier than loving an enemy as yourself.

In their truest forms, I agree. My point, however, is that this is something that the Apostles learned over time, not as an initial lesson.

I also think that calling fasting "controlling what you put in your mouth" is an unfair description.
dermdoc
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

I am confused. Are you talking about the "production" and music aspect of the service to get non believers to church?

Yes and no, depending on how you are defining "production". I think well done worship music by individuals who know their role is a blessing towards God so I am all for this. I think the "belonging before believing" that is a popular church strategy is the problem.

I know this seems like a bizarre tangent and I accept this. I just see a lack of fasting as the symptom of this problem rather than it being the problem itself.
So you believe that believers have to "do something" rather than just believe? Or are you saying that they just like the "community" and activities and do not really believe? And not trying to argue but just curious. I am very hesitant to say someone has to do anything besides believing to be saved.
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Tamu_mgm
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Simply put - fasting allows us less room for our selfish desires and more room for Jesus. Fasting can be very effective in curbing sexual, substance related, or any immoderate or wrongful desire.

St. Augustine of Hippo puts it aptly:

"Fasting cleanses the soul, raises the mind, subjects one's flesh to the spirit, renders the heart contrite and humble, scatters the clouds of concupiscence, quenches the fire of lust, and kindles the true light of chastity. Enter again into yourself."

In a world governed by "I do whatever I feel like whenever I feel like" it really is no mystery fasting has gone by the wayside in a major way - even amongst the Christian faith.
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Zobel
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The Apostles are shown fasting all through Acts. Christ acknowledges they aren't fasting with Him because He is with them, but when He leaves they will. Fasting was a regular part of Jewish piety, and clearly an activity the Apostles engage in.

I dont think fasting means strictly not eating. The Church from ancient times has not understood it this way. It means controlling what you eat and how much. It very much is controlling what goes into your mouth.
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diehard03
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So you believe that believers have to "do something" rather than just believe? Or are you saying that they just like the "community" and activities and do not really believe? And not trying to argue but just curious. I am very hesitant to say someone has to do anything besides believing to be saved.

I think it's a nonsensical discussion to have because we are called to do things and we are not dead yet.

While I subscribe to OSAS, I am not so confident in it that I am willing to do nothing for the rest of my life.
diehard03
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Quote:

The Apostles are shown fasting all through Acts. Christ acknowledges they aren't fasting with Him because He is with them, but when He leaves they will. Fasting was a regular part of Jewish piety, and clearly an activity the Apostles engage in.
True, but I don't see how any of these is proof of step 1. I think fasting is a powerful tool that we neglect to our detriment.


Quote:

I dont think fasting means strictly not eating. The Church from ancient times has not understood it this way. It means controlling what you eat and how much. It very much is controlling what goes into your mouth.


I said it's unfair because there's a purpose and thought process one goes into it with. I don't think you'd agree that it's just a check-box or anything. I think we can agree that Christ challenged the Pharisees on this type of thinking. I am also not saying you are implying this...but I was reading it this way.
Zobel
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AG
The Scriptures describe abstaining from food (tons of references), from food and water (Christ in the wilderness and Moses on Sinai, or St Paul when blind), from sex (1 Cor 7, Exodus 19) and from certain foods and comforts (Daniel 10). St John the Baptist has a kind of personal fasting discipline.

The Law only prescribes one annual day, the day of atonement, and this is a strict fast (no food or water). But the Bible shows people fasting for a short time too, like the rest of the day (2 Sam 1:12). But there are short declared fasts or individual fasts.

Most importantly, and this is a teaching of the Church completely in harmony with the scripture, is that fasting is useless if done for itself and done with absence of love, or without abstinence from evil (cf Isaiah 58).

St John Cassian (+435) writing about the teachings of the Desert Monastics, said:
Quote:

I shall speak first about control of the stomach, the opposite of gluttony, and about how to fast and what and how much to eat. I shall say nothing on my own account, but only what I have received from the Holy Fathers. They have not given us only a single rule for fasting or a single standard and measure for eating, because not everyone has the same strength; age, illness or delicacy of body create differences. But they have given us all single goal: to avoid over-eating and the filling of our bellies. They also found a day's fast to be more beneficial and a greater help toward purity than one extending over a period of three, four, or even seven days. Someone who fasts for too long, they say, often ends up by eating too much food. The result is that at times the body becomes enervated through undue lack of food and sluggish over its spiritual exercises, while at other times, weighed down by the mass of food it has eaten, it makes the soul listless and slack.

...

The Fathers have handed down a single basic rule of self control; 'do not be deceived by the filling of the belly' (Prov. 24:15), or be led astray by the pleasure of the palate. It is not only the variety of foodstuffs that kindles the fiery darts of unchastity, but also their quantity.

...

A clear rule for self-control handed down by the Fathers is this: stop eating while still hungry and do not continue until you are satisfied. When the Apostle said, 'Make no provision to fulfil the desires of the flesh' (Rom. 13:14), he was not forbidding us to provide for the needs of life; he was warning us against self indulgence. Moreover, by itself abstinence from food does not contribute to perfect purity of soul unless the other virtues are active as well.
edit - Wrong emoji sorry
Zobel
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You said the Apostles learned it over time or not as an initial lesson, and I was showing that it was an early teaching, right from the beginning, and Christ said as much, "They will fast when the bridegroom is gone." So I don't think this is an extraneous teaching, and Christ even gives us instructions on how to fast, with the presumption that we will be doing it. So this is, I would say, as pivotal as prayer and acts of mercy.

///

No, I don't call it step 1 as a check box.

But I would say Christ says, deny yourself, take up your cross, follow Him. 1, 2,3.

Deny yourself. How to? St Paul, St Peter, St John say -
"Make no provision for the desires of the flesh."
"Beloved, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul."
"For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not from the Father but from the world."

Abstaining from desires of the flesh...controlling what you put in your mouth is a pretty darn good first step, and also an eye-opener on what really drives our decision making process. It's difficult and easy, like everything else...Orthodoxy is paradoxy.

If you're saying, it's not a diet, then yeah. Just not eating or just not eating tasty food is not pious, or even beneficial (spiritually or otherwise). Scripture is clear on this too, just like even almsgiving and prayer are not beneficial (see: Pharisee and the Widows Mites, Pharisee and the Publican).

Maybe this will frame my thought. If I said: step 1 to Christian life is prayer, would people object? Probably not. How about, step 1 to Christian life is acts of mercy. Probably no objection.

But step 1 is controlling the desires of the flesh? "What do you mean I can't eat bacon two days a week?" People lose their minds.

They're all like 1a,b,c...but I say, if you're not abstaining from the desires of the flesh, the NT is clear, you're not living by the Spirit. And what are you doing, then? So maybe there's some talk about what "abstaining from the desires of the flesh" means. And that's fine -- but then we're right back to the witness of the fathers, which is "fasting" both from food and from evil.
AgLiving06
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I think it's clear from Scriptures that Jesus has commanded that we should fast.

Matthew 6 and Mark 2 (among many verses) show that clearly. The Fathers would have read that and understood clearly that we should fast.

In terms of growing closer to God, I think it's clear that following His commands is a good thing. We should be striving everyday to live every minute as He has commanded. We fall short everyday, but that is the sin that is in us.

Paul though made that clear in Romans 6 Paul makes it clear that we are called to follow Christ.

Quote:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

So as God has commanded, we should do.

However, Paul does also make it clear, that sin reigns free inside of us outside of our control.

Romans 7: 14-20
Quote:

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

It's funny, but reading the above was one of the more reassuring things to me.

Paul spends time in several books making it clear, that if anyone was to boast about their righteousness, it would be him,

Yet you can see the despair coming from him as he realizes that though he wants to serve God, his flesh serves another.

So we struggle knowing that God's grace overcomes our weakness and we find comfort know that Christ has already won.
Zobel
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AG
Sorry, but what does that have to do with (not) fasting?
CrackerJackAg
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PearlJammin said:

This is a good topic--especially as I consider how I've strayed from my commitments during Lent!


Here....worst Lent ever
dermdoc
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CrackerJackAg said:

PearlJammin said:

This is a good topic--especially as I consider how I've strayed from my commitments during Lent!


Here....worst Lent ever
This Lent I decided to do good stuff for people rather than giving stuff up. And I am doing a sort of fast this week.
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Zobel
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AG
It's supposed to be a struggle, I'm told.
dermdoc
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k2aggie07 said:

It's supposed to be a struggle, I'm told.
True, but the freedom and peace received are wonderful. And the burden is light after surrender.
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Tamu_mgm
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dermdoc said:

CrackerJackAg said:

PearlJammin said:

This is a good topic--especially as I consider how I've strayed from my commitments during Lent!


Here....worst Lent ever
This Lent I decided to do good stuff for people rather than giving stuff up. And I am doing a sort of fast this week.
That's a good idea, but it is inherently supposed to be a "both / and" not an "either / or" for Lent. If we practice self-sacrifice, then that lends itself to us giving more to others.

It is no coincidence Jesus said to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Him. Less room for ourselves, therefore more room for Jesus and his children (those all around us).
dermdoc
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I think when you do things for other people you are denying yourself in the best way possible. Giving up stuff like meat or wine or whatever seems to be more for my benefit than others. But that is just me,
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