What is deserving of our worship?

2,765 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Zobel
Zobel
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AG
I don't see any "rules" in my post. Just observations and scripture. I'm serious man, this is a really important point. One mans superfluous is another's mans critical, and who decides? This is the basic underlying appeal to authority in nearly every interdenominational disagreement. It's no fair to condemn others authority structure without being self aware of our own. We should at least avoid cognitive dissonance here.

I'm actually fine with the guy that says yep, it's me and my interpretation and good luck to the rest of you. I think he's arrogant and wrong, but at least he knows and admits where his authority comes from.
FTAggies
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Didn't God clearly define worship in the OT?
Gig'em
Zobel
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Quote:

It's deeply personal.

I'd like to push back on this, too. I know what you mean, that religion as a choice is deeply personal. I get that. But I think there is a part of our faith that is inherently extrapersonal. It comes from outside, it's bigger than us. You might even say there are parts of the faith we accept to be imposed on us by God (we do say we are free slaves to Christ, right?). So I think the communal part of our faith is not personal. And worship is a communal act, not a personal one (when you come together as a church... wherever two or three are assembled... etc).
cecil77
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AG
Since it's all humans, there is no irrefutable authority. Only each of us trying to do our best. What you understand as "observation and scripture", I may see/perceive/know/experience very differently. Indeed, what you call "extra personal" still takes an individual human mind/soul to experience and perceive, hence that's "personal" as well. Throw in global differences in language, culture and experience and it's even moreso. There simply are no absolutes. That's why it's called faith.
Ol_Ag_02
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k2aggie07 said:

Haha - whats legalistic about it? I am not even sure I set a criterion anywhere. Same means same, one means one. One can't be two.

The unfair part is the ecumenical types get to act as if they're all inclusive when they like, but feel free to draw their own lines as to what is and isn't salvific. I suspect you don't think Mormonism is a valid expression of Christianity. Or perhaps the westboro Baptist types bother you. Somewhere you say, yeah, that's no longer the same faith as me. And then what's the difference between me and you? How come my line is legalistic and yours isn't?


Who's in the club versus out is like porn. You know it when you see it.
Zobel
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AG
That's completely arbitrary. No friends to the left no enemies to the right is a better standard than that. This is no friends to the left or right, and I only know where they line is.
Zobel
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AG
cecil77 said:

Since it's all humans, there is no irrefutable authority. Only each of us trying to do our best. What you understand as "observation and scripture", I may see/perceive/know/experience very differently. Indeed, what you call "extra personal" still takes an individual human mind/soul to experience and perceive, hence that's "personal" as well. Throw in global differences in language, culture and experience and it's even moreso. There simply are no absolutes. That's why it's called faith.
Man, I don't see how anyone can hold this view and be a Christian*. This is an argument against knowable truth, and I can't square that with a revealed God, an immanent God, a divinely granted scripture, a divinely revealed Gospel, and a divine promise of unity and knowledge.

For starters, there is an irrefutable authority - Christ as the criterion for truth. God is extrapersonal, He exists outside of us. We have promises in the scripture about this, and they don't say "well shucks, just do your best."

Coming down a rung, we have scripture. Nobody in this discussion (I think) permits personal authority beyond an interpretative lens over a handed down text. I don't think anyone here is advocating for someone to determine their own scripture. So already as a baseline we've implicitly accepted an external truth criterion (external even to our own reality, regardless of our perception of it) and some level of tradition and authority to derive the canon.

We also all believe (I think) in an extrapersonal reality that we participate in intimately - the Holy Spirit. As St Paul says, "but we have the mind of Christ." You either believe that or you don't. In which case, who is really alone in this?

We have so many scriptures about one faith, about one gospel, about all the truth, about the faith handed down once for all. And scriptures about teaching and instruction - never mind that the scriptures taken in a whole are a mutually supporting structure, with no particular verse needing to be read in a vacuum or on an island.

There are absolutes. There is a God. He became man. He died for us. He loves us. These are non-negotiable, these are absolutes to Christians.

This is almost like saying since everyone can only experience in a personal way, we have know way of knowing what anyone else is experiencing, therefore reality doesn't exist.

Of course we approach nothing this way. We don't approach history this way. We don't really approach soft things like cinema (who can really "know" whether or not Darth Vader was being metaphorical about being Luke's father?). We don't even don't even do this for football -- you didn't see what the ref saw, so there's no absolute. No one lives like that.

The reality is most Christians agree on the things I outlined above. Whether they realize it or not they also accept without argument the authority of the Church to produce the canon and other doctrinal points such as the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. What most modernists reject usually is an external authority binding on the interpretation of the canon. At that point, though, it's closing the door after the horse has bolted. You've accepted the bulk of tradition. The whole thing becomes irrational when you start to pick and choose unless you're extremely careful about how and why, and on what authority you're doing so.

*what I mean here is I think you don't really believe this. I think you have some internal beliefs that preclude this, but you carry them without cognitive dissonance. Under inspection, though, I think a reject of absolutes is incompatible with Christianity as such.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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k2aggie07 said:



Quote:

Just because we worship in different buildings and in different ways why must that be fractured? Again, is my children's love fractured because it is different? Of course not, and I love them unconditionally, because they are my children. Just as Christ loves his children.

Well, for starters because the scriptures say that we should be unified. Christ Jesus prays for this unity to the same degree as He is one with the Father, and even goes as far as to say this level of unity is the identifying hallmark of Christianity so that the world will believe that He is from the Father (John 17:21).

St Paul says, when you come together as a church there are divisions among you, and that this is good to show who is approved (by God). But that's for a church that is physically coming together at least in one place. Here the divisions are so bad that you don't even do that.

St Paul says there is "one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father" in one place (Eph 4:5). In another, he says THE cup, THE loaf, and says that because there is one loaf, we are one body, because we partake of that loaf. We no longer have this in Christianity.

We don't have one body. because we don't partake of one loaf. You don't believe what I do about the Eucharist. We likely don't share a common understanding or belief or practice in baptism. We don't have one faith. You may not believe what I do about God and salvation, and we likely don't share a common creed (creed comes from the Latin word for "I believe"). So how can you say we are unified? We aren't unified in a general sense, and we're not unified in a particular sense, either. We certainly don't meet any of the scriptural standards to "come together as a church" - even physically!

Your children both live in your house, they both eat at your dining table with you. This not an apt analogy, this is nothing like what has happened in Christianity.

God loves all men, He makes the sun to shine on the righteous and unrighteous alike. We can't escape His love by our actions, even by sin, so His love isn't a means test for His approval or that our actions are pleasing to Him.

Quote:

I don't find God and Christ in Mass, i find rules, and rituals, and unthinking recessitation (you will think that's ludicrous, which is perfectly normal and fine). The beauty is that we are both Christians and try to live the best life that Christ has given us (that is how we honor Him).

Care less whether other people are Christianing correctly. Care more about spreading the Good News.
I think it is extremely important for Christians to care about whether other Christians are acting in god-pleasing ways. We are told by St Paul in our capacity as Christians to judge other believers, to correct them, and if they reject, to separate from them. Why? Because our unity to each other is the witness to our unity with God. Unity can only come through Christ. Divisions come from men.

The very first description we have of the Church in the NT is a very interesting verse, because it says the Church continued in three specific things - THE teaching of the apostles; THE communion, the breaking of bread; and THE prayers. Not in some teaching, various communions, and whatever prayers suited them.

We can't "spread the good news" effectively as Christendom if our entire message is garbled by ignorance, infighting, and petty disputes.
A to the men.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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cecil77 said:

Since it's all humans, there is no irrefutable authority. Only each of us trying to do our best. What you understand as "observation and scripture", I may see/perceive/know/experience very differently. Indeed, what you call "extra personal" still takes an individual human mind/soul to experience and perceive, hence that's "personal" as well. Throw in global differences in language, culture and experience and it's even moreso. There simply are no absolutes. That's why it's called faith.
Isn't the statement "there are no absolutes" also an absolute?
Zobel
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cecil77
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These discussions are problematic in short written snippets.

K2, I do not believe what you believe, or at least not how you believe it. I may even be a little bit jealous that I don't see things as concretely and "absolute" as you. But, I don't. And after 64 years probably won't.

Of course there are absolutes in the abstract, but humans are imperfect and will know those absolutes imperfectly, that's a more apt way of stating my contention that there are no absolutes. And yes, human imperfection is an absolute. That's kinda the point. So I guess "there are few absolutes is more apt".

Therefore, every person, including those who wrote down scripture and those who decided what is/isn't scripture (and there's even disagreement there) are likewise imperfect. If God wanted it to be easy He would have made it so, but He didn't. If questions are permitted when I get there, that may be one of the first!

So all I can do, is all I can do. God gave me my freewill, and my intellect. It is my belief that He intended me to use them. And to the best of my ability I attempt to.

And please don't feel bad, your are not the first to accuse me of "not being a Christian", and honestly that doesn't bother me a bit. My faith and beliefs are not about pleasing other humans.
Zobel
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AG
Cecil, I completely agree. We have four-beer discussions on here all the time and it's tough.

I never said you weren't a Christian. I said a blanket disbelief in absolutes doesn't square with a belief in God, who is the ultimate absolute. Human imperfection, sure. They're holy fathers, not holy spirits. I'm even fine with a flexible canon, or even a non-existent one, because my faith is in God, not a book. The faith predates the NT.

I'm being hard about this because you have to be hard to arrive at a kind of first principles for agreement. You know me well enough to know that practically speaking we're not far off - I think religions are inherently flawed, and so properly I don't think Christianity is a religion. It's the other way around, God to man not man to God. I've even been told by an archbishop that the only reason we have churches at all is to receive the mysteries, flawed as churches must be.

All that being said, the biggest gripe I have with most folks when it comes to this is that they haven't taken the time to chase their assumptions to ground - to really own their faith, find out what they believe and why...not just accept their status quo. I'm even ok to some extent with a person arriving at a point of cognitive dissonance and saying, you know what, I'm more comfortable with believing this than I am with the consequences of figuring it out. At least they know what they're doing then.

I am happy with anyone who can rationalize what they believe and why, not because they owe me any sort of explanation, but because I think this is so important for everyone that I find the spiritual and intellectual laziness offensive.
Zobel
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AG
Quote:

I've even been told by an archbishop that the only reason we have churches at all is to receive the mysteries, flawed as churches must be.


Here are snippets of that email conversation. This was some time ago, when I was first converting. This email was perhaps for me a turning point. The words are very relevant to this conversation (sorry for hijacking your thread, X...)

I said: I have always said that Grace is God's reaching out to mankind while religion is mankind's reach for God, and that religion is therefore inherently flawed.

He responded:
Bravo! A perfectly Orthodox way of thinking. It will save you from sectarianism and help you to understand why traditional Christianity preserves something that is beyond religion.

...All religion, including Orthodoxy as an external institution, has inherent dangers. That is why [an author] very clearly distinguishes Orthodoxy, as a "way," from the modern superficial concept of religion, which also prevails among some Orthodox...

...This is what Orthodoxy is: correct belief (Orthodoxy) and correct practice (Orthopraxy), which together form and confirm the natural, true existence of the human.

...Just as Baptism among the early Christians was called "photismos" (illumination), so the Church Fathers equate salvation with "theosis" (deification). Hence, theology is about what is lived, not what is proclaimed. Theology and Scripture describe the glory of God. They do not contain it. That glory is bestowed on us through living a transformative theology.

...We can recognize, once we see what sick religion is, that we must seek healthy religion. That is our rational decision. But that decision is a prelude to experiencing God in mystery and in what is trans-rational. And there is the ineluctable rub. Few people, even Orthodox, care to do that. Hence, popular religion and its superficies and dangers.

You might then ask, "Why have Orthodox Churches?" The answer is simply because the Mysteries that the Church contains and dispenses serve to introduce one to all of the higher aspects of religion.

Like any other confession, Orthodoxy (or much of what exists in the name of Orthodoxy) can be followed and practiced in an empty, non-effective way and can convey much of the sickness of religion.

...we assess [a faith] by what it is capable of achieving maximally, not how it goes astray in a minimalistic sense. In the end the barometer of ecclesiastical truth is the Christian life and the life of deification that the Church can produce.

...And how do we purify ourselves? By the continual observance of Orthodoxy and its spiritual regimen: living in but not of the world, submitting our wills to God's, fasting, praying, accepting all as coming from God (including health and sickness, good and bad), and seeking to be among the blessed who are described on the Beatitudes (the Sermon on the Mount). We must also trust God and not ourselves and sacrifice for our Faith as the one most precious thing in our lives. Anything less leaves one sick with religion.

We do not, of course, do this only by our own efforts, but in synergy with God, Whom we discover within us, and within the Church, which, when it is doing as it should and adheres to Holy Tradition, administers the deifying Mysteries of the Church, which illumine us.

...God acts through Grace everywhere. Just as one is not, by becoming Orthodox, automatically cured of imperfection and impurity, so we are not in a position, as mere humans, to deny God's Providence. All that we can say is that we know where purification is - in Christ and in Orthodoxy - and that it is our duty to maintain that truth undefiled (hence our clear opposition to ecumenism) and to call others to the experience of Orthodoxy in its genuine form.

/////

It was good for me to reread this.
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