God's Plan of Salvation

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aggiedad20
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Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God
(Rom 10:17)

We must Believe (Heb 11:6; Mk 1:5;9:23; 16;16)

We must Repent (Act 3:19; Luke 13:3)

We must Confess Christ is the Son of God
(Rom 10:9-10)

We must Be Baptized for Remission of Sins
(Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom 6:3-4)

And we must Be Faithful Unto Death
(Rev 2:10; 3:5; Gal 5:4)


dermdoc
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AG
So which of those did the thief on the cross perform?

Why did Paul not tell the jailer all those things? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. And when did Jesus ever say those things to anyone he had contact with? Not with the rich young ruler. Not with Nicodemus. Not with the Samaritan woman at the well. Not with the Roman centurion.

And also curious with how you are defining the word "repent".
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Kool
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AG
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

The Bible says MANY things about salvation to many different people in many different situations. The thief on the cross was in a bit of a pickle as he couldn't get down and start following what Jesus told his followers to do as in Matthew 25 so that they might be with God's sheep, rather than the goats. I truly believe the thief went to heaven, as will many Jews, Muslims, and even nonbelievers at the end. But the bar will be much higher for me, as I've heard the Word, been offered a chance to accept it or reject it, and to maintain, preserve, and further that relationship. Just my opinion.
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dermdoc
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AG
Kool said:

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That sounds like God's plan of salvation. Men have devised their own "plans".
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dermdoc
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AG
So you believe your salvation is based on your actions and works? And for the others you mentioned it is up to God totally?
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Kool
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AG
Salvation is by grace through faith. But true faith demands a response. Jesus told people to follow him. Once they followed him, he told them what to DO to abide and remain within him. Hence those calling upon the name of the Lord but not doing His will. And the rich man who goes away sad because he isn't willing to do what Jesus demands of him. And those who ask the Lord when they ever met him, and he gives examples of meeting him in works of mercy as in Matthew 25. I am certainly a VERY far cry from Paul, who felt the need to press on until the end rather than rest assured in his salvation as in Philippians 3, 1 Corinthians 9, and Hebrews 3:14.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

So which of those did the thief on the cross perform?

Why did Paul not tell the jailer all those things? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. And when did Jesus ever say those things to anyone he had contact with? Not with the rich young ruler. Not with Nicodemus. Not with the Samaritan woman at the well. Not with the Roman centurion.

And also curious with how you are defining the word "repent".


The thief on the Cross is not a good example for "faith alone" salvation for multiple reason. Firstly, the Law of Christ wasn't in effect as it is today. Christ had not died yet nor shed His blood (Heb 9:16). Also, Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, you will be saved". This is required under the Law of Christ so how did the thief know Jesus would raise from the dead? I bet next you're going to say the thief was never baptized??
aggiedad20
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Kool said:

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

The Bible says MANY things about salvation to many different people in many different situations. The thief on the cross was in a bit of a pickle as he couldn't get down and start following what Jesus told his followers to do as in Matthew 25 so that they might be with God's sheep, rather than the goats. I truly believe the thief went to heaven, as will many Jews, Muslims, and even nonbelievers at the end. But the bar will be much higher for me, as I've heard the Word, been offered a chance to accept it or reject it, and to maintain, preserve, and further that relationship. Just my opinion.



Salvation by opinion. Hmmmm. Too much Billy Graham and not enough Bible it seems.
aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

Kool said:

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That sounds like God's plan of salvation. Men have devised their own "plans".


Acts 22:16 teaches us what calling on the name of the Lord looks like...
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dermdoc
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AG
I do not know anything about the thief except what I read in the Bible. And I am a baptized Christian. I just think God has a very simple plan of salvation. And man adds things. But that is just my opinion. I will say I have never understood why a lot of believers bristle when people try to make it simple. And inclusive rather than exclusive.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

I do not know anything about the thief except what I read in the Bible. And I am a baptized Christian. I just think God has a very simple plan of salvation. And man adds things. But that is just my opinion. I will say I have never understood why a lot of believers bristle when people try to make it simple. And inclusive rather than exclusive.


So you want to be saved like the thief on the Cross but you don't know anything about him? That's a dangerous game imho. I've not added anything, all I've done is quote Scripture which you seem to "sorta" accept.
dermdoc
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AG
Extremely good question. I have always thought that is why the Pharisees, Sadducees, and religious establishment hated Jesus as He did not respond in the way they felt He should if he was truly "religious".
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dermdoc
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AG
Did I quote Scripture also? Do you accept the Scripture I quoted? And I am a baptized believer and accept the Scripture you quoted. I think the problem is that we interpret them differently. Which is always the rub, isn't it?

And do you know more about the thief on the cross than what is in the Bible? Would also appreciate it if you would not project and put words in my mouth. You seem to have a preconceived idea of what non Church of Christ Christians believe. Thanks.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

Did I quote Scripture also? Do you accept the Scripture I quoted? And I am a baptized believer and accept the Scripture you quoted. I think the problem is that we interpret them differently. Which is always the rub, isn't it?

And do you know more about the thief on the cross than what is in the Bible?


I know that to be saved we must believe that Christ died, was buried, and raised from the dead (the Gospel) and I'll be glad to hear just how the thief knew any of that?? The fact is he didn't nor did he have to know because Jesus had the authority to save while alive on earth. Did Noah or Jacob or Moses or any OT figure believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ?? Are they saved?
dermdoc
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AG
Yes I believe they are saved. And I agree with everything in your last post. Which is not the same as what you posted in your op.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

Yes I believe they are saved. And I agree with everything in your last post. Which is not the same as what you posted in your op.


Believing, repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized for remission of our sins is every bit a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we must obey (2 Thess 1:8).

The only thing different from my op is your opinion on the thief vs Scripture, apparently.
dermdoc
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AG
So what is my view on the thief except he was saved? What have I said otherwise? Please stop projecting and putting words in my mouth. Thanks.
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dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Did I quote Scripture also? Do you accept the Scripture I quoted? And I am a baptized believer and accept the Scripture you quoted. I think the problem is that we interpret them differently. Which is always the rub, isn't it?

And do you know more about the thief on the cross than what is in the Bible?


I know that to be saved we must believe that Christ died, was buried, and raised from the dead (the Gospel) and I'll be glad to hear just how the thief knew any of that?? The fact is he didn't nor did he have to know because Jesus had the authority to save while alive on earth. Did Noah or Jacob or Moses or any OT figure believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ?? Are they saved?
Read the first sentence of your post here and your op and tell me how they are the same please.
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dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Yes I believe they are saved. And I agree with everything in your last post. Which is not the same as what you posted in your op.


Believing, repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized for remission of our sins is every bit a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we must obey (2 Thess 1:8).

The only thing different from my op is your opinion on the thief vs Scripture, apparently.

And where does 2 Thessalonians mention any of the things that you listed in your op? It talks about the Gospel. The Good news.

And you even posted the Gospel. Christ died, was buried, and was raised from the dead.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Did I quote Scripture also? Do you accept the Scripture I quoted? And I am a baptized believer and accept the Scripture you quoted. I think the problem is that we interpret them differently. Which is always the rub, isn't it?

And do you know more about the thief on the cross than what is in the Bible?


I know that to be saved we must believe that Christ died, was buried, and raised from the dead (the Gospel) and I'll be glad to hear just how the thief knew any of that?? The fact is he didn't nor did he have to know because Jesus had the authority to save while alive on earth. Did Noah or Jacob or Moses or any OT figure believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ?? Are they saved?
Read the first sentence of your post here and your op and tell me how they are the same please.


Sir. Your argument was the thief on the Cross didn't follow the God's plan of salvation (which I laid out in the op) yet he was still saved. Any reasonable person can infer what you meant, therefore I'll ask again. How could the thief possibly know that Jesus died, was buried and rose from the dead when it hadn't happened yet?? Better yet why would he need to know that since he was saved BEFORE the death of the testator, Jesus Christ??
aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Yes I believe they are saved. And I agree with everything in your last post. Which is not the same as what you posted in your op.


Believing, repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized for remission of our sins is every bit a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we must obey (2 Thess 1:8).

The only thing different from my op is your opinion on the thief vs Scripture, apparently.

And where does 2 Thessalonians mention any of the things that you listed in your op? It talks about the Gospel. The Good news.

And you even posted the Gospel. Christ died, was buried, and was raised from the dead.


Exactly! And 2 Thes 1:8 teaches us that we must obey the Gospel. So the question everyone should ask themselves is how do I do that??
dermdoc
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AG
Fair enough. And I understand the point you are making and agree. Do you believe what you quoted as the Gospel is the same thing as the list in your op?

And I am still curious as to why Paul did not tell the jailer he had to do the things you listed in your op.
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dermdoc
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AG
aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Yes I believe they are saved. And I agree with everything in your last post. Which is not the same as what you posted in your op.


Believing, repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized for remission of our sins is every bit a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we must obey (2 Thess 1:8).

The only thing different from my op is your opinion on the thief vs Scripture, apparently.

And where does 2 Thessalonians mention any of the things that you listed in your op? It talks about the Gospel. The Good news.

And you even posted the Gospel. Christ died, was buried, and was raised from the dead.


Exactly! And 2 Thes 1:8 teaches us that we must obey the Gospel. So the question everyone should ask themselves is how do I do that??
And imho it will be different for every person. That is why we are all a member of the Body of Christ. I am a foot and you are a hand. I think there is a danger in when we judge other people in how they obey the Gospel.
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Kool
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AstroAg17 said:

Can you elaborate on why true faith demands a response? I think there are many examples of people failing to respond appropriately to things they know to be true. I'd expect this to extend into religion. In other words, I'd expect there to be many people who have accepted Christ who still fail regularly, and that's what we observe. Actions are an imperfect metric for assessing things like faith and belief.


I believe in things around me because I can see and feel them. I believe in people I've met and in people I haven't met. They make no demands of me. I never met Jesus, outside of the Eucharist, yet I believe in Him. He said he was the Son of Man and He was crucified, among other reasons, for making heretical statements. He was either a whack job, an outright liar, or the Lord, the Messiah, the Word made flesh. I believe the latter because God called me to this belief, because I was Baptized with this belief, because my family and friends and Church formed me in this belief. And I believe this because there were witnesses to His resurrection, many of whom died horrific deaths for no reason other than refusing to deny what they saw and who they believed in. Why would they make up such an outrageous lie? All it got them was persecution and often death.
Then when you go back and read and listen to what Jesus told his followers, he absolutely demanded a response in order to follow him. He asks that I seek forgiveness, that I repent and turn away from sin, that I love even my enemies, that I forgive 70 times 7 (fullness), that I seek after Him, etc. He doesn't ask that I say that I believe in Him and go on living my merry way, ignoring the poor, the hungry, the sick, the naked, the imprisoned. He demands a response. A change. I fail him time after time, but He calls me back.
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dermdoc
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That is my own personal experience.
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dermdoc
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i am just very reluctant to make manmade defintions as to who is saved and who is not. And imho, Christians should be the least judgemental of all people due to the realization of grace. That is not my personal experience.
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Zobel
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"You only need the Bible to be saved"

"Where does it say that in the Bible?"

Crickets.
dermdoc
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k2aggie07 said:

"You only need the Bible to be saved"

"Where does it say that in the Bible?"

Crickets.


Nowhere of course. The Bible and Scripture have never saved anybody. Only Jesus has.

Sola Savior
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Zobel
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Amen!
AgLiving06
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Why should I confess "Christ is the Son of God?"

You seem to have left verses out...
dermdoc
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AG
Kool said:

AstroAg17 said:

Can you elaborate on why true faith demands a response? I think there are many examples of people failing to respond appropriately to things they know to be true. I'd expect this to extend into religion. In other words, I'd expect there to be many people who have accepted Christ who still fail regularly, and that's what we observe. Actions are an imperfect metric for assessing things like faith and belief.


I believe in things around me because I can see and feel them. I believe in people I've met and in people I haven't met. They make no demands of me. I never met Jesus, outside of the Eucharist, yet I believe in Him. He said he was the Son of Man and He was crucified, among other reasons, for making heretical statements. He was either a whack job, an outright liar, or the Lord, the Messiah, the Word made flesh. I believe the latter because God called me to this belief, because I was Baptized with this belief, because my family and friends and Church formed me in this belief. And I believe this because there were witnesses to His resurrection, many of whom died horrific deaths for no reason other than refusing to deny what they saw and who they believed in. Why would they make up such an outrageous lie? All it got them was persecution and often death.
Then when you go back and read and listen to what Jesus told his followers, he absolutely demanded a response in order to follow him. He asks that I seek forgiveness, that I repent and turn away from sin, that I love even my enemies, that I forgive 70 times 7 (fullness), that I seek after Him, etc. He doesn't ask that I say that I believe in Him and go on living my merry way, ignoring the poor, the hungry, the sick, the naked, the imprisoned. He demands a response. A change. I fail him time after time, but He calls me back.
I really like this post. Just curious, are you Catholic?
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Frok
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dermdoc said:

i am just very reluctant to make manmade defintions as to who is saved and who is not. And imho, Christians should be the least judgemental of all people due to the realization of grace. That is not my personal experience.


Well that is kind of a judgemental statement.

Truth is everyone is judgemental. We only seem to notice when someone judges differently than ourselves.

Kool
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AG
Gracias and si. I hammered it out just before the "Super"bowl yesterday. For a while I attended a nondenominational mega church before I started really reading the Catechism and Pope John Paul II's Crossing the Threshold of Hope and thinking about Salvation, etc. That's another story, though. I love C.S. Lewis' depiction of heaven and hell in The Great Divorce. And I think there are going to be a LOT more people in heaven than the mega church taught when I and you and others hopefully get there.
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dermdoc
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Frok said:

dermdoc said:

i am just very reluctant to make manmade defintions as to who is saved and who is not. And imho, Christians should be the least judgemental of all people due to the realization of grace. That is not my personal experience.


Well that is kind of a judgemental statement.

Truth is everyone is judgemental. We only seem to notice when someone judges differently than ourselves.


Got me. I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church and everybody seemed to really notice how everyone was dressed, etc. Nowadays it is different.
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