Where did the love with the Evangelical right and Israel come from?

14,700 Views | 222 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by nortex97
schmendeler
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Frok said:

schmendeler said:

Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?


Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
evangelicals are the little kid that helped make the shake and bake. mom is the US government. but sometimes mom listens to what the kid requests for dinner.
PacifistAg
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Frok said:

PacifistAg said:

Frok said:

schmendeler said:

Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?


Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
In all fairness, that last line isn't saying it's all evangelicals fault. There is the admission that the fire was already there. 'Armageddon-ready' evangelicals are simply throwing fuel onto the fire.


In all fairness both sides throw fuel on the fire.
Agreed, but the discussion was about evangelicals .

PacifistAg
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JJMt said:

Who's to say that two states would have proven to be a "solution"? When have the Arabs been OK with a nation-state of Israel anywhere in the middle east?
From my experience, the problem that the Palestinians had that I met wasn't the mere existence of Israel, but the fact that they were driven off their homeland to create the modern state of Israel. It's only made worse by the day-to-day war crimes being committed by Israel. Palestinians, on the flip side, also have a tendency to make their situation that much worse by lashing out w/ violence.
UTExan
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schmendeler said:

Frok said:

schmendeler said:

Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?


Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
evangelicals are the little kid that helped make the shake and bake. mom is the US government. but sometimes mom listens to what the kid requests for dinner.
Are you saying that out of envy for evangelical influence or because of the serious evangelical experience of conversion? Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted and slandered because he was persecuted and slandered. The liberal religious establishment seems to be filling the role of persecutors to a T.
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Texaggie7nine
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Evangelical dispensationalism being taught in full gospel and other evangelical churches for the past 50 years certainly is the most influential factor in my mind.

Israel has catered to this for almost just as long not only because of all the money they receive through christian tourism and direct donations to Israeli causes but because of the sway that constituency carries on government policy.
7nine
Texaggie7nine
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How do you minimize suffering for someone who wants to kill you and would do so if given the chance?
7nine
schmendeler
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UTExan said:

schmendeler said:

Frok said:

schmendeler said:

Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?


Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
evangelicals are the little kid that helped make the shake and bake. mom is the US government. but sometimes mom listens to what the kid requests for dinner.
Are you saying that out of envy for evangelical influence or because of the serious evangelical experience of conversion? Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted and slandered because he was persecuted and slandered. The liberal religious establishment seems to be filling the role of persecutors to a T.
it was an analogy attempting to describe the role evangelicals have in public policy toward Israel.
Kool
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I don't think they all want to kill Israelis. Some of them just want to have jobs and families and homes. Collective punishment of the people living in Israeli occupied territories just worsens the enmity between the peoples. If a foreign power ever tried to occupy the U.S., I can only imagine the result. If my neighbor told me that they were going to bulldoze my home because someone three houses away was threatening them and they felt they needed a security border, and nobody stood up for me, I'd be plenty pissed. Then if they took away my right to unhindered travel to my work place, my grocery store, my hospital, etc., I'm not entirely sure how I'd act. Yet that is reality for Arabs living in Occupied Territories that Israel tears down in order to build Settlements. The entire situation is toxic.
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Kool
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My kindred spirit. Exactly.
Bulldoze a bunch of homes. All of them are angry. Some act with violence. Point the finger at those and say, "See, they're awful and violent people who want to harm us. We need MORE of a barrier". Declare new Settlements. Fund them internally and from the U.S. act surprised when the violence and hatred continues, ask for more money and assistance. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
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Texaggie7nine
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JJMt said:

Texaggie7nine said:

How do you minimize suffering for someone who wants to kill you and would do so if given the chance?
Perhaps start by not bulldozing the houses of individuals who are living in areas that Israel previously had said were off limits to Israeli development, without notice or compensation, and who hadn't personally ever indicated any violent intent to the state of Israel or individual Israelis?
If all you want to do is stop the settlements, I'm fine with that. But the everyday average suffering of the Palestinian is mostly all the fault of Palestine.
7nine
94chem
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Arafat knew this - the best way to show the true motives of the Muslim Palestinians was to give them what they claimed they wanted. He couldn't let that happen.
PacifistAg
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I spent the night in Susya, That's such a sad, but infuriating story. They were kicked out of their village. Now they live in a tent village, and there are over 20 demolition orders for their tents. These are tents. They are some of the kindest people I've ever met. We walked with their kids to school one morning (happened to be my birthday). The kids sang happy birthday to me, then proceeded to make me look foolish while playing soccer lol.

Jordan Valley is perhaps the most egregious issue that I saw. In most other places in the West Bank, the Israelis will simply expel a community, tear down their village, then build a new settlement on top of the remains. In the Jordan Valley, they are far more sinister. They build the settlement next to the village. These villages are all located around natural springs, which are their primary source of water. The settlement will then drill down into the water table and pump the water to their settlement. The spring will dry up, while sitting next to a lush green settlement. The IDF then shuts down roads so when the Palestinians inevitably have to have their water driven in, the cost skyrockets. We drove by several water tanks that had also been shot by the IDF. So what if the Palestinians just drill down to get water? Oh, the Israelis have addressed that. Palestinians cannot drill deeper than 150 meters. At 150 meters, the water is full of salt. Israelis can drill down as far as 800 m, where the water is usable.

This doesn't even address the massive date farms which suck much of the water away from the Palestinians. The settlers justify it by saying that this is a major source of jobs for the Palestinians, ignoring the fact that Palestinian workers make a fraction of what imported Thai workers make. Or the fact that most grazing land is being declared "military firing zone", leaving Palestinians with nowhere to graze their sheep. I met one man who continued to do so in an area declared a "preserve" by the IDF. So, in response, the IDF simply burned all the vegetation. We had an Israeli man showing us around, and the word he continued using was "ethnic cleansing". They're just clever about it by doing it without all the body bags. They're just making life a living hell to drive them away. It's evil.
canadiaggie
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PacifistAg said:

I spent the night in Susya, That's such a sad, but infuriating story. They were kicked out of their village. Now they live in a tent village, and there are over 20 demolition orders for their tents. These are tents. They are some of the kindest people I've ever met. We walked with their kids to school one morning (happened to be my birthday). The kids sang happy birthday to me, then proceeded to make me look foolish while playing soccer lol.

Jordan Valley is perhaps the most egregious issue that I saw. In most other places in the West Bank, the Israelis will simply expel a community, tear down their village, then build a new settlement on top of the remains. In the Jordan Valley, they are far more sinister. They build the settlement next to the village. These villages are all located around natural springs, which are their primary source of water. The settlement will then drill down into the water table and pump the water to their settlement. The spring will dry up, while sitting next to a lush green settlement. The IDF then shuts down roads so when the Palestinians inevitably have to have their water driven in, the cost skyrockets. We drove by several water tanks that had also been shot by the IDF. So what if the Palestinians just drill down to get water? Oh, the Israelis have addressed that. Palestinians cannot drill deeper than 150 meters. At 150 meters, the water is full of salt. Israelis can drill down as far as 800 m, where the water is usable.

This doesn't even address the massive date farms which suck much of the water away from the Palestinians. The settlers justify it by saying that this is a major source of jobs for the Palestinians, ignoring the fact that Palestinian workers make a fraction of what imported Thai workers make. Or the fact that most grazing land is being declared "military firing zone", leaving Palestinians with nowhere to graze their sheep. I met one man who continued to do so in an area declared a "preserve" by the IDF. So, in response, the IDF simply burned all the vegetation. We had an Israeli man showing us around, and the word he continued using was "ethnic cleansing". They're just clever about it by doing it without all the body bags. They're just making life a living hell to drive them away. It's evil.


Clever, they learned from what the Nazis did to them - if you do it quick and loud, you'll commit international suicide. If you do it death by a thousand cuts, no one will care.
Aggrad08
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I'm not sure how you are making that determination given the structural issues Israel imposes on that society.

I'm glad to see so many on this board are coming to realize how flatly indefensible Israel's behavior is.

The change from "never again" to "never again to us" in their attitude is quite clear and problematic.
Texaggie7nine
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Structural issues that were results of hostile actions taken by Palestine.

7nine
PacifistAg
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Indeed. They have even turned the old city section of Hebron into, what's essentially, a ghetto.

As Aggrad pointed out, somewhere along the line, "never again" turned into "never again...to us". I think it happened pretty quickly, given the atrocities committed during the Nakba.

Perhaps someone with stars can pull up my threads i started that detailed my time over there. There were a lot of pictures shared too. Titles reference either Palestine, the West Bank, or Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT). I had put a ton of info in those.
schmendeler
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https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2812964/replies
traxter
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Wow. And we only hear about a fraction of that if we listen really hard over here.

And as you point out Pacifist, regarding it starting pretty early, we have to remember that the founders of Israel were actually an established insurgent group in British Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel. The Irgun was their name, and they carried out terrorist attacks to promote their agenda of kicking out the British and establishing a Jewish state void of Arabs. So, I can't speak for their motives early on, and at this point I don't know anyone can say for certain. But, whether or not they had an expansionist/ethnic cleansing agenda that soon, but given the background of the founders, it would not surprise me.
PacifistAg
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Thanks! Man I miss it. They had so many applicants for the last CPT training, and I didn't make the cut. One day, though, I'll be back there.
RespectTheDecision
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here are my personal reasons I support Israel...

1) Israel and jews are obviously iimportant to God, therefore important to me. God almighty has chosen that land for himself and will rule there for 1000 years after His return! VP Pence said it best that he supports Israel because it supports good over evil, and he described the Jewish state as Abraham's "promised land," which, as it grows, reaches closer to heaven.

2) Fascinating bible prophecy that State of Israel was reborn in 1948 and jews continue moving back to their homeland today. No other people group in world history has accomplished that.

3) A third temple is prophesied to be built in Jerusalem. This along with a 7 year peace treaty is essential to the Messiah's return. This alone should have every Christian excited and supportive of Israel as it's a key part of our faith!

4) Despite the Arab's hate for Israel and their constant scheming to push them off into the ocean , the 70 year old country is a blessed and thriving nation. A silicon valley of the middle east! technological & medical innovations. They are leading in desalination, and a very strong top 10 military. Quite amazing considering Israel is about the size of New Jersey.
opk
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Quote:

.....their (Jews) continued disobedience to God, i.e. their rejection of the Messiah.

Rejection of the Christian Messiah is not disobedience to God.

That would be like saying that Christian rejection of Allah is disobedience to Islam.

SMH
RespectTheDecision
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opk said:

Quote:

.....their (Jews) continued disobedience to God, i.e. their rejection of the Messiah.

Rejection of the Christian Messiah is not disobedience to God.


I could not disagree more! Rejecting Christ "IS" rejecting God. I cant think of a better example of disobedience to God
schmendeler
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Unless you don't think Jesus was the Messiah
RespectTheDecision
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Jesus/Yeshua = God in the flesh

God = Jesus/Yeshua

if someone doesnt believe that Jesus is the messiah then that is disobedience to God.

...if you dont believe Jesus was and is The Messiah then may God have mercy on your soul
schmendeler
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Maybe people don't find the story to be credible.
opk
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FriscoTxAggie said:

opk said:

Quote:

.....their (Jews) continued disobedience to God, i.e. their rejection of the Messiah.

Rejection of the Christian Messiah is not disobedience to God.


I could not disagree more! Rejecting Christ "IS" rejecting God. I cant think of a better example of disobedience to God
Jesus is not my God.

It's 11 degrees F. today. The thought of a warm place (your religion's Hell) is enticing. Oh ...........

.........never mind.
RespectTheDecision
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it's a recorded historical event. People can reject the truth and believe in nothing. Or believe in a false God. Some think Jesus is not Lord of Lords and dont believe He is God. That's their free will to believe in the truth or not.

The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today. This alone should eliminate doubt that God exists, but there are atheists still today.

If you believe in "God" but not the bible then I would strongly suggest researching why you do or dont believe the Bible is the word of God.
RespectTheDecision
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opk, I didnt know you reject Jesus as God. Do you believe in a God?
opk
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Yes, of course, I believe in God, the God of the First Testament.* I believe in the coming of the Messiah.

However, I do not believe in the Christian Messiah, Jesus. I have no problem with your believing so.



*What many refer to as the "Old Testament".

RespectTheDecision
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AG
are you a jew? if so, what are your thoughts on the third temple being rebuilt anytime soon?


also, do you believe Jesus was a real person?
Texaggie7nine
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I believed the bible for 26 years. Then I really looked into why, and now I don't.
7nine
RespectTheDecision
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do you mind sharing more on why? or what lead you to reject the bible?
 
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