Can anyone enlighten me?
Macarthur said:
I've wondered this too. It's really weird to me.
I get that Christians for too long actually blamed Jews for Jesus' death, which is incredibly ironic, but for the pendulum to have swung so far the other direction for some, is just as strange.
It's not a right left issue. I know many conservatives that think Hagee and his ilk are off their rockers.Frok said:
Jews and Christians share similar values in regards to culture. Dispensationalism might play a role but I don't think it's the main driver. The holocaust probably changed the perspective of the jews for many in this country as well.
I don't see why the left is so irritated by it. Are christians supposed to not like Jews?
You may be right, but many of the people I hear talk about it wouldn't know what the hell geopolitical means. There are a ton of them that hear this nonsense from the pulpit and have a very superficial understanding of the issues and history of the region.dermdoc said:
The Evangelicals I know support Isreal more from a geopolitical standpoint and furthering of American interests rather than for religious reasons.
I don't know, man. I'm in SA and his congreagation and sphere of influence is huge. And his buddy in Dallas, Jeffries, is at FBC Dallas, which of course is huge, too.Frok said:
Hagee is off his rocker. But I don't think he is representative of most evangelicals. I don't think modern Israel is ever talked about with anyone I know in real life. It's not a hot button topic at all.
And no we don't just like Israel because we hate muslims. (Well, I'm sure some do. But majority? Doubtful)
I am biased by the people I hang out with. They are all well educated,Macarthur said:You may be right, but many of the people I hear talk about it wouldn't know what the hell geopolitical means. There are a ton of them that hear this nonsense from the pulpit and have a very superficial understanding of the issues and history of the region.dermdoc said:
The Evangelicals I know support Isreal more from a geopolitical standpoint and furthering of American interests rather than for religious reasons.
This. I've noticed this so much more since spending a couple weeks in the West Bank. I am by no means an expert, but I was blown away, almost immediately, with how different reality was compared to the narrative I had been fed growing up in evangelical churches.Quote:
have a very superficial understanding of the issues and history of the region.
Macarthur said:I don't know, man. I'm in SA and his congreagation and sphere of influence is huge. And his buddy in Dallas, Jeffries, is at FBC Dallas, which of course is huge, too.Frok said:
Hagee is off his rocker. But I don't think he is representative of most evangelicals. I don't think modern Israel is ever talked about with anyone I know in real life. It's not a hot button topic at all.
And no we don't just like Israel because we hate muslims. (Well, I'm sure some do. But majority? Doubtful)
I think it may be a bit foolish to dismiss these guys as fringe.
American evangelicals much more distrust the cultural tenets of Islam. The fact that Israel has traditionally been the scapegoat for every dysfunctional government in the Middle East is an example. Evangelicals see the in-gathering of Israel to their own land as fulfillment of biblical prophecy, unlike most mainstream Protestants who are taught preterism and proponency of replacement theology substituting the church for Israel.craigernaught said:
I think the dispensationalist theology explanation is overstated.
They have the same enemies, specifically Arabs. American evangelicals see Israeli animosity towards Arabs as justifying their own. It's a useful argument in the public sphere.
JJMt said:
A lot of it may due to the dual and parallel influences of the Scofield Reference Bible and Dallas Seminary. During the first half of the 20th century, the Scofield Reference Bible was perhaps the most widely used Bible in Evangelical circles. Its footnotes had a profound impact on Evangelical Protestant attitudes, including not only dispensationalism but also the role of Israel in world history. Some scholars I know have suggested that it would be interesting to do a scholarly study of the impact of that Bible on American foreign policy.
Dallas Theological Seminary was also one of the key seminaries in conservative, evangelical circles. Virtually all Bible Church pastors were graduates of Dallas Seminary. The Seminary taught not only dispensationalism, but also echoed the teachings of the Scofield bible with regard to the role of Israel.
ramblin_ag02 said:
Haven't you heard? Once the gospel has been preached throughout the whole world and all the Jews are back in Israel then Jesus can come back.
I'm only half-kidding, as that would at least partially describe the motivations for missions and supporting Israel in several of the evangelical churches I've attended
traxter said:
.
This is all despite the fact that Arab Christians in Israel are treated pretty horribly. Often only marginally better than Arab Muslims in Israel. Of course Christians in the Palestinian territories are treated just as bad as their Muslim neighbors. I think RetiredAg mentioned a lot of this the last time he went there and saw it himself.
except there is no jesus playing skynyrd on a cloud at the end.Macarthur said:
THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
Macarthur said:
THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?Frok said:Macarthur said:
THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
schmendeler said:might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?Frok said:Macarthur said:
THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
In all fairness, that last line isn't saying it's all evangelicals fault. There is the admission that the fire was already there. 'Armageddon-ready' evangelicals are simply throwing fuel onto the fire.Frok said:schmendeler said:might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?Frok said:Macarthur said:
THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
PacifistAg said:In all fairness, that last line isn't saying it's all evangelicals fault. There is the admission that the fire was already there. 'Armageddon-ready' evangelicals are simply throwing fuel onto the fire.Frok said:schmendeler said:might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?Frok said:Macarthur said:
THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
we can't say for sure. but exacerbating the problem is pretty safely the opposite of a solution.JJMt said:
Who's to say that two states would have proven to be a "solution"? When have the Arabs been OK with a nation-state of Israel anywhere in the middle east?