Where did the love with the Evangelical right and Israel come from?

14,703 Views | 222 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by nortex97
Evening Time Joke Man
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Can anyone enlighten me?
Macarthur
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I've wondered this too. It's really weird to me.

I get that Christians for too long actually blamed Jews for Jesus' death, which is incredibly ironic, but for the pendulum to have swung so far the other direction for some, is just as strange.
Evening Time Joke Man
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Macarthur said:

I've wondered this too. It's really weird to me.

I get that Christians for too long actually blamed Jews for Jesus' death, which is incredibly ironic, but for the pendulum to have swung so far the other direction for some, is just as strange.


It's a good question, Martin Luther HATED Jewish people, many of the reformers did as did Catholicism. I'm wondering where this belief came from?
Pro Sandy
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AG
I think it is tied closely to Dispensationalism, which only came about less than 200 years ago.
Frok
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Jews and Christians share similar values in regards to culture. Dispensationalism might play a role but I don't think it's the main driver. The holocaust probably changed the perspective of the jews for many in this country as well.

I don't see why the left is so irritated by it. Are christians supposed to not like Jews?
Woody2006
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Genesis 12:3
ramblin_ag02
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Haven't you heard? Once the gospel has been preached throughout the whole world and all the Jews are back in Israel then Jesus can come back.

I'm only half-kidding, as that would at least partially describe the motivations for missions and supporting Israel in several of the evangelical churches I've attended
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craigernaught
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I think the dispensationalist theology explanation is overstated.

They have the same enemies, specifically Arabs. American evangelicals see Israeli animosity towards Arabs as justifying their own. It's a useful argument in the public sphere.
Macarthur
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Frok said:

Jews and Christians share similar values in regards to culture. Dispensationalism might play a role but I don't think it's the main driver. The holocaust probably changed the perspective of the jews for many in this country as well.

I don't see why the left is so irritated by it. Are christians supposed to not like Jews?

It's not a right left issue. I know many conservatives that think Hagee and his ilk are off their rockers.
Frok
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Hagee is off his rocker. But I don't think he is representative of most evangelicals. I don't think modern Israel is ever talked about with anyone I know in real life. It's not a hot button topic at all.

And no we don't just like Israel because we hate muslims. (Well, I'm sure some do. But majority? Doubtful)
dermdoc
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The Evangelicals I know support Isreal more from a geopolitical standpoint and furthering of American interests rather than for religious reasons.
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Macarthur
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dermdoc said:

The Evangelicals I know support Isreal more from a geopolitical standpoint and furthering of American interests rather than for religious reasons.
You may be right, but many of the people I hear talk about it wouldn't know what the hell geopolitical means. There are a ton of them that hear this nonsense from the pulpit and have a very superficial understanding of the issues and history of the region.
Macarthur
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Frok said:

Hagee is off his rocker. But I don't think he is representative of most evangelicals. I don't think modern Israel is ever talked about with anyone I know in real life. It's not a hot button topic at all.

And no we don't just like Israel because we hate muslims. (Well, I'm sure some do. But majority? Doubtful)
I don't know, man. I'm in SA and his congreagation and sphere of influence is huge. And his buddy in Dallas, Jeffries, is at FBC Dallas, which of course is huge, too.

I think it may be a bit foolish to dismiss these guys as fringe.
dermdoc
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Macarthur said:

dermdoc said:

The Evangelicals I know support Isreal more from a geopolitical standpoint and furthering of American interests rather than for religious reasons.
You may be right, but many of the people I hear talk about it wouldn't know what the hell geopolitical means. There are a ton of them that hear this nonsense from the pulpit and have a very superficial understanding of the issues and history of the region.
I am biased by the people I hang out with. They are all well educated,
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PacifistAg
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Quote:

have a very superficial understanding of the issues and history of the region.
This. I've noticed this so much more since spending a couple weeks in the West Bank. I am by no means an expert, but I was blown away, almost immediately, with how different reality was compared to the narrative I had been fed growing up in evangelical churches.
Frok
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Macarthur said:

Frok said:

Hagee is off his rocker. But I don't think he is representative of most evangelicals. I don't think modern Israel is ever talked about with anyone I know in real life. It's not a hot button topic at all.

And no we don't just like Israel because we hate muslims. (Well, I'm sure some do. But majority? Doubtful)
I don't know, man. I'm in SA and his congreagation and sphere of influence is huge. And his buddy in Dallas, Jeffries, is at FBC Dallas, which of course is huge, too.

I think it may be a bit foolish to dismiss these guys as fringe.


Well just think of how many people do not attend those two churches. I don't think most churches have any stances on that particular situation.

I don't know much at all about Hagee other than his blood moon thing and Jeffries as the Trump fanboy.
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UTExan
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craigernaught said:

I think the dispensationalist theology explanation is overstated.

They have the same enemies, specifically Arabs. American evangelicals see Israeli animosity towards Arabs as justifying their own. It's a useful argument in the public sphere.
American evangelicals much more distrust the cultural tenets of Islam. The fact that Israel has traditionally been the scapegoat for every dysfunctional government in the Middle East is an example. Evangelicals see the in-gathering of Israel to their own land as fulfillment of biblical prophecy, unlike most mainstream Protestants who are taught preterism and proponency of replacement theology substituting the church for Israel.

I am almost at the point of thinking that there should be a sect differentiation between mainstream Protestantism and Evangelicals/Charismatics (perhaps known collectively as Second Blessing Christians to appropriate John Wesley's terminology---significant of his Fetter Lane experience).
94chem
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JJMt said:

A lot of it may due to the dual and parallel influences of the Scofield Reference Bible and Dallas Seminary. During the first half of the 20th century, the Scofield Reference Bible was perhaps the most widely used Bible in Evangelical circles. Its footnotes had a profound impact on Evangelical Protestant attitudes, including not only dispensationalism but also the role of Israel in world history. Some scholars I know have suggested that it would be interesting to do a scholarly study of the impact of that Bible on American foreign policy.

Dallas Theological Seminary was also one of the key seminaries in conservative, evangelical circles. Virtually all Bible Church pastors were graduates of Dallas Seminary. The Seminary taught not only dispensationalism, but also echoed the teachings of the Scofield bible with regard to the role of Israel.


Cool story, but remember that DTS and the Scofield Bible existed decades before there was an Israel.

1) I support Israel because they are the only democracy in the Middle East.

2) Israel currently consists of Jews who are back in their homeland despite their continued disobedience to God, i.e. their rejection of the Messiah. There are many non-Jews there who do follow Jesus. We should remember this.

3) Nonetheless, God's prophecies for Israel do not seem to be complete, nor can they be fulfilled by the church, either through assumption or self-fulfillment. This means that "God is gonna be God," and He doesn't need my help.

Therefore, while points 2 and 3 appear to be in conflict for the time being, I can hang my hat on point 1. I believe that God did something miraculous in 1948, but I'm not sure what it means.

And Hagee is a kook, and anybody who follows him, or tries to align his teaching with DTS, is also a misguided kook. Believing God still has work to accomplish through Israel isn't kooky; it's just biblical.
AggieEyes
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Your asking for a logical rationale to something towards a religious audience?
fahraint
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I am not a dispensationalist, I would be classified in the group of historic premillennialism......Joel Richardson would be included in this group. I am evangelical and pro-Israel, not because Israel deserves God's favor, but because He promised to fulfill His covenant with the fathers, per Ezekiel 35-39, Jeremiah 30-33, Deuteronomy 28-32 among others...He is a God who fulfills His promises despite our failings
traxter
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Something I've wondered for a while. Unpopular opinion, but I think guilt over what we let happen during WWII played a big part in how fervently pro-Israel we are in this country, along with Israeli zionists buying influence among our leaders, religious and political. Freshmen congressmen get free trips to Israel shortly after getting elected. Many ministers and Christian groups get free or subsidized trips to Israel. That influence filters back down to all of us, directly or indirectly.

This is all despite the fact that Arab Christians in Israel are treated pretty horribly. Often only marginally better than Arab Muslims in Israel. Of course Christians in the Palestinian territories are treated just as bad as their Muslim neighbors. I think RetiredAg mentioned a lot of this the last time he went there and saw it himself.

But, there's got to be more to it than that. As Evangelical leaders in other countries are also very pro-Israel, yet I don't think they get the same free trips to Israel.
Bird Poo
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Haven't you heard? Once the gospel has been preached throughout the whole world and all the Jews are back in Israel then Jesus can come back.

I'm only half-kidding, as that would at least partially describe the motivations for missions and supporting Israel in several of the evangelical churches I've attended


This is the main reason from my experience with evangelicals.
PacifistAg
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traxter said:

.
This is all despite the fact that Arab Christians in Israel are treated pretty horribly. Often only marginally better than Arab Muslims in Israel. Of course Christians in the Palestinian territories are treated just as bad as their Muslim neighbors. I think RetiredAg mentioned a lot of this the last time he went there and saw it himself.


This is true, from what I saw. The IDF, the settlers, etc do not seem to care if their victims are Christian or Muslim. Heck, I was with an NGO escorting children to school and was assaulted by a settler, right in front of an IDF soldier, and he did nothing. She then turned and attacked a man (unrelated to the NGO) who was taking pictures. The IDF's only response was to tell us to leave.

On a side note, I saw where they just opened what's being referred to as 'Apartheid Road'.



https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-new-apartheid-road-opens-separating-palestinians-and-west-bank-settlers-1.6827201
bigtruckguy3500
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Kool
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Gracias, Truck. Unfortunately, a lot of people are letting someone else do their thinking on this matter. I don't believe Jesus would ever condone the Settlements that Israel is and has been building. I come across a lot of Fundamentalists as well in Georgia who don't believe Jews are/can be saved but who want them to bomb the Palestinians back to the Stone Age. I don't get it, but watching this helps me understand their mentality (not their reasoning).
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Macarthur
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THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
schmendeler
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Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling
except there is no jesus playing skynyrd on a cloud at the end.
Frok
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Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
schmendeler
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Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?
Frok
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schmendeler said:

Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?


Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
PacifistAg
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Frok said:

schmendeler said:

Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?


Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
In all fairness, that last line isn't saying it's all evangelicals fault. There is the admission that the fire was already there. 'Armageddon-ready' evangelicals are simply throwing fuel onto the fire.
Frok
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PacifistAg said:

Frok said:

schmendeler said:

Frok said:

Macarthur said:

THe last line of that is so poignant. These 'Armageddon-ready' Evangelicals are pouring gasoline on this fire and scares the hell out of me that this becomes self-fulfilling


Oh yeah because that region was so peaceful before evangelical Americans came around.
might the Israelis have acquiesced to the two state solution without the billions of aid and the rest from the US allowing them to act how they have?


Who knows? But clearly evangelicals fault.
In all fairness, that last line isn't saying it's all evangelicals fault. There is the admission that the fire was already there. 'Armageddon-ready' evangelicals are simply throwing fuel onto the fire.


In all fairness both sides throw fuel on the fire.
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schmendeler
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JJMt said:

Who's to say that two states would have proven to be a "solution"? When have the Arabs been OK with a nation-state of Israel anywhere in the middle east?
we can't say for sure. but exacerbating the problem is pretty safely the opposite of a solution.
 
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