Hundreds of sex abuse allegations found in fundamental Baptist churches across U.S.

For many who grew up in this world, this isn't a surprise. Highly recommend reading this piece.

PacifistAg said:

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Hundreds of sex abuse allegations found in fundamental Baptist churches across U.S.

For many who grew up in this world, this isn't a surprise. Highly recommend reading this piece.

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UTExan said:

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Excellent example of why believers should ALWAYS view clergy with a healthy dose of skepticism. When someone tries to manipulate others into sexual activity, you know Satan is in the picture. One thing I have to say for my Methodist denomination currently: they actively try to root out and prosecute sexual abuse once it is reported.

Thanks for bringing this up because some view literalist churches as a place free from such misbehavior whereas the truth is that no place is free of it. That is why we have police forces.

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While we may disagree about LEOs, I know we'll find agreement on the vile act of simply shifting the predatory "ministers" around. I appreciate articles like this because it gives us names. This is something that absolutely must be rooted out of the church, because as you said, this is Satan at work.

Part 2: These 'men of God' sexually abused children. Then they found refuge at other churches

This isn't about Christianity. This isn't about Islam. This is about power. This is about the IFBC world and the dangers so often seen in fundamentalism that elevates those in power to an "untouchable" status, regardless of what faith it's found in.

"Allegations"

I'm skeptical it is as much as it says. Probably just a hit piece to discredit people they don't like.

And I'm not endorsing sexual immorality. I just think I could post this exact same article about any group.

Frok said:

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"Allegations"

I'm skeptical it is as much as it says. Probably just a hit piece to discredit people they don't like.

And I'm not endorsing sexual immorality. I just think I could post this exact same article about any group.

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Did you read the article? Most of these victims brought the abuse to the attention of church leaders or parents when they were still teenagers. Many of these predators are simply moved to new churches where the problem continued.

AstroAg17 said:

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Can you elaborate? Have you experienced or had reason to expect sex abuse in a Baptist Church?

It seems difficult to interpret the information in the article without a control group. What's the background rate? Is that a lot of sex abuse? I don't see evidence for their claim that this is systemic or specifically a Baptist problem. It seems like a bad study.

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Yes I can elaborate. It will be a longer post so I'll post tomorrow from a computer.

PacifistAg said:

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Frok said:

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"Allegations"

I'm skeptical it is as much as it says. Probably just a hit piece to discredit people they don't like.

And I'm not endorsing sexual immorality. I just think I could post this exact same article about any group.

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Did you read the article? Most of these victims brought the abuse to the attention of church leaders or parents when they were still teenagers. Many of these predators are simply moved to new churches where the problem continued.

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I'm sure there are examples. I just think I can find those in any denomination. Is it truly a prolific problem specific to fundies? My guess is not.

But yes, sexual sin is a problem within the church, outside the church and pretty much everywhere.

It's not just the sexual predatory behavior. It's how it's covered up and handled by many of these churches

Did you read the article?

Sort of.

AstroAg17 said:

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Can you elaborate? Have you experienced or had reason to expect sex abuse in a Baptist Church?

It seems difficult to interpret the information in the article without a control group. What's the background rate? Is that a lot of sex abuse? I don't see evidence for their claim that this is systemic or specifically a Baptist problem. It seems like a bad study.

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Astro,

Now that I'm at a computer, I wanted to address your questions. First, let me be clear about something. The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church (IFBC) world shouldn't be confused with the Baptist church in general, especially the Jack Hyles strain of the IFBC. I don't think people truly understand what it is like in that world. The one man in the article who had escaped it described that Jack Hyles strain correctly. It is a cult. In that cult, even the Southern Baptists are godless liberals. The problem is the way they view the pastor. He is to never be questioned. He is to be consulted in almost all matters, often including buying of a house or taking of a job. There really is the mindset that the pastor is one rung below God, and that all things that come from the pastor come from God. If you read the article, you'll see just how this power dynamic plays out when it comes to how sexual abuse is handled. In one account, Jack Hyles' son, Dave, had a 14 year old girl in his office. He went over to her and put her hand on his groin. She stated that she felt it was wrong, but since he was the pastor, then clearly this is what God wanted. He even compared himself to King David and told her that it was her job to meet his needs. This is not just the case of one sick family (Jack Hyles' son-in-law is currently serving a 16 year federal prison sentence for sexual abuse of a minor).

If you read the article, you'll see how pervasive this is among that strain of the IFBC. You'll see just how often the offending minister is often sent to Hammond, IN (home of Jack Hyles' church - First Baptist Hammond, and the church's college - Hyles-Anderson College). They'll do time there then be sent elsewhere. Since there is no central governing structure in the IFBC world, many ministerial hires are based on recommendations that come from Hyles' disciples or those within the Hyles strain.

But, to get back to your questions about my experience, I did not personally experience sexual abuse but was at a church that was tightly linked with First Baptist Hammond and we had at least 2 ministers "go away" after sexual abuse allegations were made. Since, in that world, the pastor's word is above reproach, the victims are often made to publicly apologize to the church for their sin, and the actual sin of the minister is either downplayed as an "indiscretion" or covered up completely. The victims often go along with this because the pastor told them to and the pastor's word comes straight from God, or so we were brainwashed to believe. In the article (may be in part 2), a girl was sexual abused when she was 16. Her abuser was sent to work at First Baptist Hammond WITH THE TEENAGERS. The victim then attended Hyles-Anderson College (one of the few approved colleges to attend) and saw her abuser working there. Jack Hyles' daughter then recommended to the girl that she write a formal apology to her abusers' wife. This is the same daughter whose husband is now serving a 16 year prison sentence.

Like I said, our church was closely linked to FBH and Hyles-Anderson College. Most of our church school graduates ended up going to college there. We had a friend who was a couple years older who attended HAC. He was at their Sunday morning service in the front row w/ his girlfriend. Jack Hyles had somehow found out that she listened to country music. This isn't surprising because people were often reported for such behavior (my brother was suspended from the basketball team because he was seen going to a movie). During the sermon, Jack Hyles looked at her and called her a "*****". Again, I don't think most realize just how scary that world is. And I do differentiate between IFBC and the IFBC of the Jack Hyles strain. Every IFBC church I attended was part of the Hyles strain, but I do know that those who are not of that were not nearly as bad. I believe TampaBayAg is part of the IFBC movement and has also commented on the sick nature of the Hyles strain.

So, when I say I'm not surprised by anything I read in the article it's because I know how the power dynamic plays out in that world. I don't use the word 'cult' lightly, but that is a descriptor that applies perfectly for this strain of the IFBC. Like I said, this is a power problem. At the top is the pastor. He is above reproach. Then come the other ministers, also above reproach. Then come men. Then come young men (especially if you were a "preacher boy"). Then come women. And at the bottom are young women. It's not surprising when you have a system with zero accountability and such a power structure, that those at the very top prey on those at the bottom.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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No bigger threat of child molestation than organized Christianity.

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Except for Islam, South East Asia, Africa, Latin American Cartels, and gays of course.

All this time the Baptists have been looking at the Catholics and going "well we are better than them because we don't molestat kids." Irony is a real sumbeeyotch.

Socially liberal NPC 888 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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No bigger threat of child molestation than organized Christianity.

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Except for Islam, South East Asia, Africa, Latin American Cartels, and gays of course.

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Oh wow you win. It is ok that Baptists molest children now.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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Socially liberal NPC 888 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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No bigger threat of child molestation than organized Christianity.

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Except for Islam, South East Asia, Africa, Latin American Cartels, and gays of course.

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Oh wow you win. It is ok that Baptists molest children now.

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Never said that. I think the people that did this should be lined up in a field and shot. Death penalty for all child molestors.

Part 3: 'It's ruined me.' Former independent fundamental Baptists describe life in the church

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"My dad asked me if I were allowed to wear pants, if I would do it. I said, 'I don't know' as a kid you're terrified I don't know. He said, 'Because you can't tell me right now, that means you are not a Christian. You are not going to heaven because a Christian would never hesitate at that question.' "

Leah Elliott, Indiana

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"I told her that I was raped and how violent it was and how I was terrified it would happen again. She gave me a five-minute counseling session and told me she would have to tell Pastor Schaap and the nurse, inform the doctor. And not to tell anyone. Anyway, we had our meeting, and they told me my rape was God's will because it sent me there."

Amber McMorrow, Colorado. Former pastor Jack Schaap is serving a federal prison sentence for sexually abusing a 16-year-old congregant at First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana. He did not respond to requests for comment via a letter sent to him in prison.

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Jack Schaap (Hyles' son-in-law) visited our church often. I believe he was the one who would give the "preacher boys" (young men who announced they wanted to be preachers) $50. Needless to say, we always saw an increase in the number of preacher boys once we heard he was coming.

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"They teach us there's no such thing as mental illness. They say it's all just not trusting in Jesus enough."

Barbra Lanzisera, California

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"There's a secret glee in thinking people you don't like are burning in hell."

James McGrail, West Virginia

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"There was a prevailing belief that it was always the girls' fault, even a child. Because if a girl was being modest and obeying God nothing bad would happen. And boys and men were simply unable to control themselves, so it was up to the girls and women."

Denise Kodi, Alabama

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"My late mother, not long after we had started going to church, my stepfather had asked her to spend no more than $50 at the grocery store. Unfortunately, the bill totaled $52. Rather than put something back to get the bill under $50, she gave the cashier a weak smile and explained apologetically, 'I'm so sorry, but I'm going to have to call my husband about this. You see, we're a Christian family, and I believe in submitting to my husband.' So off she went to the other end of the store to use the phone and call my stepfather at work while my brother and I waited at the counter. I could feel my face turning red, and my brother didn't really understand what was going on, either. Our mother came back with a satisfied smile and informed the cashier, 'I'm so sorry for holding up the line, but my husband said it was fine. I just had to ask him first because we're a Christian family.'"

Natasha Latham, Texas

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"One of my classmates saw me riding one of my horses, and she reported me to the principal for wearing pants."

Susan Wisecarver, Indiana

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"I've been away from there for 30-plus years, I still have those feelings. I still if something bad happens to me, my immediate go-to in my brain is God's punishing me, and I have to talk myself through it."

Linda Murphrey, who requested her location be withheld because she's received death threats for speaking out in the past.

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"I have had to go through years of therapy and numerous medications for my panic attacks and depression, and I have tried to commit suicide twice once while still attending there and another time shortly after. I feel like I can never be normal or live a normal life so many years were ruined and taken away from me. I was stripped of a normal childhood and having actual parents or any real friends. It has given me severe social anxiety. Until this day, it's so hard to meet people and make new friends because I am such a basket case."

Melissa Winter, Tennessee, via Facebook messenger

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"I remember my first pair of pants, it was 11th grade. I started crying when I put them on, I was like, 'I'm going to get in trouble.' I wore them to public school, I couldn't eat my lunch. I was shaking. I kept looking around thinking there'd be a spy. He always said, no matter how far you went, his reach went farther."

Michelle Myers, Arizona, on her fear of her former pastor

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Socially liberal NPC 888 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Socially liberal NPC 888 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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No bigger threat of child molestation than organized Christianity.

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Except for Islam, South East Asia, Africa, Latin American Cartels, and gays of course.

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Oh wow you win. It is ok that Baptists molest children now.

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Never said that. I think the people that did this should be lined up in a field and shot. Death penalty for all child molestors.

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All you did was a giant WHATABOUT THIS THOUGH where you said "entire regions of the world are child molestors". It makes as much sense as saying "the moon stole my lawnmower."

AstroAg17 said:

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I think you believe the allegations. They are probably mostly true. But in an individual instance, are you comfortable with ruining a pastor's career based on an allegation? I'm not, and I can easily see how an unwillingness to presume guilt could lead to the sort of relocation that you claim is a symptom of a problem.

Do you believe the people hiring the pastor elsewhere think he's a sex predator? I don't. I think that they believe his claim of innocence. To claim that they know he did it and choose to keep him in the clergy anyways would be a very bold claim.

Your claim seems to be that the pastor is believed because he's the pastor. I think he should be believed as a default because he's the accused.

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I think that would depend on the Pastor's position on patriotism and its incompatibility with authentic amish-christianity syncretic rastafarianism.

I have seen this process play out with two people who I knew---one being a distant acquaintance who permitted sexual abuse of a child by another member of the congregation and did not report the abuse to local authorities for investigation. He was tried in the legal system and found guilty. Meanwhile, he was suspended from all clergy duties by the local Methodist bishop pending a church trial. He was found guilty at a church trial and lost his ordination.

Another involved a closer friend who was accused of child sexual abuse and there were no witnesses other than the alleged victim. He was convicted, but the conviction was overturned due to judicial misconduct, and was later tried in a Presbyterian church trial. I honestly do not know if he was guilty of the charge, but he was acquitted in the church trial when the victim refused to come forward to testify. Life-wrenching events these were, but the church authorities did the right thing in not trying to cover up these ugly events even with the attendant publicity.

AstroAg17 said:

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Your claim seems to be that the pastor is believed because he's the pastor.

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In the cultish world of the Jack Hyles strain of the IFBC, this is exactly why he's believed. I don't think you fully grasp what this world is like. The pastor in this world is truly above reproach and is not to be questioned...ever.

The comments from part 3 that I quoted above are 100% consistent with what I experienced in that world.

The minister should be removed from his duties while an actual investigation is conducted. That doesn't happen, though, because to investigate the pastor would be a sin because it means one is questioning the pastor's actions. To question the actions of the pastor is to question God in that strain. Instead, victims are ignored, pressured intensely to stay quiet, told they were the one who sinned, and if that the pastor is transferred elsewhere, they leave with a letter of recommendation in hand.

It's all very standard for what one would expect of a cult. Power, abuse, oppression all enforced through fear.

Why would anyone hire a pastor under investigation for...anything?

Marco Esquandolas said:

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All this time the Baptists have been looking at the Catholics and going "well we are better than them because we don't molestat kids." Irony is a real sumbeeyotch.

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IFBC != Baptist

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Your claim seems to be that the pastor is believed because he's the pastor. I think he should be believed as a default because he's the accused.

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According to the US legal system, you are correct. But I disagree in these cases. There is a crazy power imbalance when a minor accuses someone with authority and power of wrongdoing. There is no way you're ever going to get a fair shake from a he said/she said between a 14 year old girl and a member of the clergy So at some point you have to weight the scales in favor of the victim, otherwise you're just enabling predators in power.

The typical response to this is "2 deep" supervision like you see in the boy scouts, most youth groups, or medical situations. There needs to always be 2 adults present whenever anyone vulnerable is around or anyone is in any vulnerable situations. At this point, whenever I hear about an authority figure having one on one meetings with vulnerable people (whether doing counseling, disciplining minors, etc), I just assume something untoward is going on.

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There needs to always be 2 adults present whenever anyone vulnerable is around or anyone is in any vulnerable situations.

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At our last 2 churches, we were regular volunteers in the children's ministry. This was the standard. Two adults always. Never one-on-one.

FightinTexasAggie08 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Socially liberal NPC 888 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Socially liberal NPC 888 said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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No bigger threat of child molestation than organized Christianity.

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Except for Islam, South East Asia, Africa, Latin American Cartels, and gays of course.

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Oh wow you win. It is ok that Baptists molest children now.

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Never said that. I think the people that did this should be lined up in a field and shot. Death penalty for all child molestors.

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All you did was a giant WHATABOUT THIS THOUGH where you said "entire regions of the world are child molestors". It makes as much sense as saying "the moon stole my lawnmower."

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I think that may have been in response to your "NO BIGGER THREAT OF CHILD MOLESTATION THAN ORGANIZED CHRISTIANITY" breathless erroneous emotiposting you did.

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Calmer than you are. I'm just stating true facts bro. Sorry that's inconvenient for you.

Everyone thought this was just a Catholic problem. Welp.