UTExan said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

UTExan said:

---

Why would anybody want to belong to a secret society which discriminates against non-members, has arcane rituals and justifies itself in the name of "community service'? I can do community service with the American Legion, which is composed of veterans, or with the Rotary Club. And that is exactly what I do.

---

That is not a question any man can answer on behalf of another man. You'll have to decide that for yourself or find a Freemason who is willing to share. I expect your efforts will be in vain if you open with such aggression and preconceived ideas. Many will not share such a deep personal decision under those circumstances.

---

It is not aggression. I have toured the local (Salt Lake) Masonic temple and have a friend deeply involved with them. Membership and identification with secret societies dedicated to protecting and promoting their own undercuts the integrity of social and public institutions because it compromises meritocracy. It is the same reason I oppose affirmative action on the basis of ethnicity.

---

But the two are not the same. By definition, acceptance into Freemasonry is based on merit. It's not unlike being a Realtor and a member of NAR, TAR, and HAR. Your very acceptance is requisite your credentials. Affirmative action, however, is exactly as you stated...a great way to undermine meritocracy. Thoughts?

BrazosDog02 said:

---

UTExan said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

UTExan said:

---

Why would anybody want to belong to a secret society which discriminates against non-members, has arcane rituals and justifies itself in the name of "community service'? I can do community service with the American Legion, which is composed of veterans, or with the Rotary Club. And that is exactly what I do.

---

That is not a question any man can answer on behalf of another man. You'll have to decide that for yourself or find a Freemason who is willing to share. I expect your efforts will be in vain if you open with such aggression and preconceived ideas. Many will not share such a deep personal decision under those circumstances.

---

It is not aggression. I have toured the local (Salt Lake) Masonic temple and have a friend deeply involved with them. Membership and identification with secret societies dedicated to protecting and promoting their own undercuts the integrity of social and public institutions because it compromises meritocracy. It is the same reason I oppose affirmative action on the basis of ethnicity.

---

But the two are not the same. By definition, acceptance into Freemasonry is based on merit. It's not unlike being a Realtor and a member of NAR, TAR, and HAR. Your very acceptance is requisite your credentials. Affirmative action, however, is exactly as you stated...a great way to undermine meritocracy. Thoughts?

---

You're assuming a meritocracy existed before affirmative action.

I'm just working within the context of the OP. But yes, you are correct.

JJMt said:

---

Quote:

---

You're assuming a meritocracy existed before affirmative action.

---

That's not assumed at all. Affirmative action is simply replacing one evil with another.

---

What should be done to address the social and cultural norms that rendered it impossible for minorities and women to achieve equality and opportunity? Because maintaining the status quo in the name of "fairness" just perpetuates the issues for generations.

JJMt said:

---

Quote:

---

What should be done to address the social and cultural norms that rendered it impossible for minorities and women to achieve equality and opportunity? Because maintaining the status quo in the name of "fairness" just perpetuates the issues for generations.

---

Where did I say anything about "maintaining the status quo"? Once again, like you did with UTExan, you're projecting and putting words in others' mouths. You try real hard to manufacture evil intent into those who's conclusions you disagree with.

What should be done is to find, destroy and punish badly any conduct that discriminates against minorities. We should have policies that eliminate restrictions on freedom and equality, not policies that shift the restrictions from one group to a different group.

What we need are policies that work and have few unintended consequences. Affirmative action fails on both counts. It doesn't work and its unintended consequence is that it disincentivizes hard work and initiative. It also casts a shadow on the achievements of its beneficiaries.

I'll also object to your use of the word "impossible". "Very difficult" may be correct, but impossible is hyperbole. And minorities and women are two very different groups with two very different sets of issues and factors. Lumping them together is done only for political purposes rather than trying to find solutions that actually work to the benefit of each group.

---

I'm not assuming bad intentions or evil intent by anyone. Discrimination can be maintained for generations without a single nefarious or bad person involved. That's the problem. It's not an issue of cackling racists rubbing their hands together and getting off at the thought of keeping the black man down. It's perpetuating a social system created over centuries that used race as one of the defining characteristics of who got to play and how. We don't see the stark visual reminders of that any longer, but that doesn't mean the system has gone away. I also think you're mischaracterizing what affirmative action is and what it does. But that's probably not a discussion for this board.

It is easily arguable that affirmative action delayed progress by fanning flames of racism.

Texaggie7nine said:

---

It is easily arguable that affirmative action delayed progress by fanning flames of racism.

---

The Civil Rights Movement "fanned the flames or racism," but that doesn't mean it didn't make major strides. Many of the almost insane disparities between different races and genders have reduced in the last few decades, though they are far from gone. Frankly, it would be nice if we stopped excusing racists for their behavior just because they've been confronted with the results of racism.

Dr. Watson said:

---

Texaggie7nine said:

---

It is easily arguable that affirmative action delayed progress by fanning flames of racism.

---

The Civil Rights Movement "fanned the flames or racism," but that doesn't mean it didn't make major strides. Many of the almost insane disparities between different races and genders have reduced in the last few decades, though they are far from gone. Frankly, it would be nice if we stopped excusing racists for their behavior just because they've been confronted with the results of racism.

---

Racism was defeated in sports not because of affirmative action but because they realized they hurt themselves by being racist.

Just had a discussion about Freemasonry and reminded me about this thread. Any new members here?

My great grandpa was a mason. He got my granddad, his son in law, to join after WW2. My grandpa left because he didn't feel comfortable with the culture and traditions.

I was invited to join the Jaycees when I was in high school but I passed. Grandpa was proud.

It always creeps me out a bit when someone hits me with their "secret" handshake.

Texaggie7nine said:

---

I'm surprised that the white nationalists do not start flocking to Masonry. Seems like it would be a perfect fit.

Overbearing tradition for no other sake than, "well it's always been that way, so we must fight to keep it that way".

---

I've yet to personally meet a white nationalist. I'm more skeptical they exist in real numbers than any cult/secret outfit.

PooDoo said:

---

My great grandpa was a mason. He got my granddad, his son in law, to join after WW2. My grandpa left because he didn't feel comfortable with the culture and traditions.

I was invited to join the Jaycees when I was in high school but I passed. Grandpa was proud.

It always creeps me out a bit when someone hits me with their "secret" handshake.

---

My grandfather was a Mason. I will never forget when my sister was accepted at tu-Austin way back in 1963 and we went to be "interviewed" to see if she was an acceptable enough candidate to be housed in what was then the Scottish Rite Dormitory for women. I never understood all the intricacies of it but I suspected they wanted the daughters of a line of Masons there, and one grandfather was insufficient ancestor-wise.

Edit: surprisingly, that dorm still exists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Rite_Dormitory

nortex97 said:

---

Texaggie7nine said:

---

I'm surprised that the white nationalists do not start flocking to Masonry. Seems like it would be a perfect fit.

Overbearing tradition for no other sake than, "well it's always been that way, so we must fight to keep it that way".

---

I've yet to personally meet a white nationalist. I'm more skeptical they exist in real numbers than any cult/secret outfit.

---

I know of zero actual white supremacists. I know a great many people, including Africans, who believe that western civilization (i. e. "White) results in better health, social, medical, educational and spiritual outcomes than less technologically advanced cultures or those which have archaic, less utilitarian institutions . Heck, that's why the Romans copied the Greeks, the Arabs drew from the Byzantine Empire and virtually every Western European (and Latin American) country has roots in Roman history and polity.

Well, maybe the Scandinavians and Sami the are an exception.

That's exactly the problem. A universalist approach which excludes Jesus.

For any Mason out there:

What is the core secret of your sect? Seems the star Sirius is involved with many of these arcane, secretive groups..

My grandfather and namesake (who died a couple decades before I was born) was a Mason. So is my father in law, though I don't think he's very active. What little I know of it, it seems to be basically a modern form of gnosticism. That said, given the secretive nature, it's hard to tell exactly what those guys believe.

As far as the falling membership goes, my spit-balling analysis is that gnosticism as an ideology isn't really reliant on any particular group or organization. Now that the current form of the ideology (i.e. modernism) is essentially the majority viewpoint in western civilization, there's no need to have a specific fraternal group to promote the ideas. At this point, it's mostly just a social group, for which there are plenty of alternatives that don't raise as many eyebrows.

Witcoff was high ranking and is very smart.

https://www.amazon.com/Masons-Their-Lies-Christian-Spiritual-ebook/dp/B07DBHXNYL/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1625878950&refinements=p_27%3AMichael+W+Witcoff&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Michael+W+Witcoff

Thank you Seamaster for introducing me to Dr. Taylor Marshall! The information in this video has given me exactly what I needed to make sense of what I've needed to find my way back to my church.