We had a discussion about this last night. I think the Muslim women cover their head to show modesty and submission to men. They even do it in the U.S. and other western countries where that thinking is not popular. Should Christian women do this?
Interesting. What faith traditions did they have there that Christians here don't have?PacifistAg said:
I think most Christian women I saw in the West Bank wore head coverings.
I don't think they should be required, but left to make the decision on their own. If they feel compelled to do so due to their faith traditions, so be it. I'm certainly not going to be critical of the woman's decision, Muslim or Christian, either way.
Well, most seem aligned with the Orthodox Church, and also the Catholic Church, so the faith traditions that are typically aligned with them. Saw several Coptic references as well.Create Account said:Interesting. What faith traditions did they have there that Christians here don't have?PacifistAg said:
I think most Christian women I saw in the West Bank wore head coverings.
I don't think they should be required, but left to make the decision on their own. If they feel compelled to do so due to their faith traditions, so be it. I'm certainly not going to be critical of the woman's decision, Muslim or Christian, either way.
I don't see any American women cover here, Catholic or not. Maybe in church, but certainly not in public.PacifistAg said:Well, most seem aligned with the Orthodox Church, and also the Catholic Church, so the faith traditions that are typically aligned with them. Saw several Coptic references as well.Create Account said:Interesting. What faith traditions did they have there that Christians here don't have?PacifistAg said:
I think most Christian women I saw in the West Bank wore head coverings.
I don't think they should be required, but left to make the decision on their own. If they feel compelled to do so due to their faith traditions, so be it. I'm certainly not going to be critical of the woman's decision, Muslim or Christian, either way.
You'd probably need input from one of our resident Orthodox posters, but from a quick search, it looks like some Orthodox churches require women to wear head coverings when inside the church. Here's a link to some of the current practices on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_headcovering#TraditionCreate Account said:I don't see any American women cover here, Catholic or not. Maybe in church, but certainly not in public.PacifistAg said:Well, most seem aligned with the Orthodox Church, and also the Catholic Church, so the faith traditions that are typically aligned with them. Saw several Coptic references as well.Create Account said:Interesting. What faith traditions did they have there that Christians here don't have?PacifistAg said:
I think most Christian women I saw in the West Bank wore head coverings.
I don't think they should be required, but left to make the decision on their own. If they feel compelled to do so due to their faith traditions, so be it. I'm certainly not going to be critical of the woman's decision, Muslim or Christian, either way.
It's common in Amish communities.Create Account said:I don't see any American women cover here, Catholic or not. Maybe in church, but certainly not in public.PacifistAg said:Well, most seem aligned with the Orthodox Church, and also the Catholic Church, so the faith traditions that are typically aligned with them. Saw several Coptic references as well.Create Account said:Interesting. What faith traditions did they have there that Christians here don't have?PacifistAg said:
I think most Christian women I saw in the West Bank wore head coverings.
I don't think they should be required, but left to make the decision on their own. If they feel compelled to do so due to their faith traditions, so be it. I'm certainly not going to be critical of the woman's decision, Muslim or Christian, either way.
Yes, inside the church, one (or maybe two) denominations may do it. k2aggie07 says sometimes, maybe you see it from one denomination outside the church. Why not more? Why did Christians in North America stop? Is modesty and submission no longer a concern for American Christian women?PacifistAg said:You'd probably need input from one of our resident Orthodox posters, but from a quick search, it looks like some Orthodox churches require women to wear head coverings when inside the church. Here's a link to some of the current practices on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_headcovering#TraditionCreate Account said:I don't see any American women cover here, Catholic or not. Maybe in church, but certainly not in public.PacifistAg said:Well, most seem aligned with the Orthodox Church, and also the Catholic Church, so the faith traditions that are typically aligned with them. Saw several Coptic references as well.Create Account said:Interesting. What faith traditions did they have there that Christians here don't have?PacifistAg said:
I think most Christian women I saw in the West Bank wore head coverings.
I don't think they should be required, but left to make the decision on their own. If they feel compelled to do so due to their faith traditions, so be it. I'm certainly not going to be critical of the woman's decision, Muslim or Christian, either way.
My guess is that it's largely driven by culture and tradition. It looks like it was also pretty common in North America up until the start of the 20th century.
I don't know. You'd have to ask women. I would imagine most would say that they can be modest without covering their heads.Quote:
Is modesty and submission no longer a concern for American Christian women?
Can't Muslim women say this? Or Orthodox/Catholics in the West Bank? Why did American women change or no longer follow their tradition?PacifistAg said:I don't know. You'd have to ask women. I would imagine most would say that they can be modest without covering their heads.Quote:
Is modesty and submission no longer a concern for American Christian women?
Yes, Muslims do this too. Covering their whole face except for a see-through veil. Or others that use it as a fashion piece. Defeats the purpose.UTExan said:
If you attended church in the south ca. 1950-1970, you would see that many Christian women adored head coverings: too much, really, with those spreading floral offerings and brims that just went on forever.
Not all Muslim women cover their heads. As was pointed out, many Arab Orthodox don't cover so as to distinguish themselves from Muslims. I don't know why it changed in America. It seems to be, to me at least, largely driven by culture. If a culture no longer places an emphasis on women covering their heads, then it will probably fade away. I would also imagine the growth of women's movements aimed at equitable treatment probably had an influence as well. It wouldn't surprise me, and this is just my theorizing and not based on anything else, that given how poorly women were treated, that once they started demanding better treatment, they may have seen head coverings as a patriarchal symbol. Of course, that may be completely wrong, as I haven't read anything about the actual reasons.Create Account said:Can't Muslim women say this? Or Orthodox/Catholics in the West Bank? Why did American women change or no longer follow their tradition?PacifistAg said:I don't know. You'd have to ask women. I would imagine most would say that they can be modest without covering their heads.Quote:
Is modesty and submission no longer a concern for American Christian women?
Are Muslim women, or even Christian women, wearing them for "fashion" purposes? Just because they now make more fashionable ones to wear doesn't defeat the purpose that they are worn for. One can be fashionable and modest.Quote:
Or others that use it as a fashion piece. Defeats the purpose.
I'm sure you can find a Muslim woman who doesn't cover. Or an American Christian woman who does. But the vast majority do not. I'm not saying one way or the other. Just found it curious that Muslims have no problem covering. Or unaffected by the reasons you gave - unequality, patriarchy, poor treatment. They willingly submit and dress modestly. They care more about their religion or faith tradition than women's movements.PacifistAg said:Not all Muslim women cover their heads. As was pointed out, many Arab Orthodox don't cover so as to distinguish themselves from Muslims. I don't know why it changed in America. It seems to be, to me at least, largely driven by culture. If a culture no longer places an emphasis on women covering their heads, then it will probably fade away. I would also imagine the growth of women's movements aimed at equitable treatment probably had an influence as well. It wouldn't surprise me, and this is just my theorizing and not based on anything else, that given how poorly women were treated, that once they started demanding better treatment, they may have seen head coverings as a patriarchal symbol. Of course, that may be completely wrong, as I haven't read anything about the actual reasons.Create Account said:Can't Muslim women say this? Or Orthodox/Catholics in the West Bank? Why did American women change or no longer follow their tradition?PacifistAg said:I don't know. You'd have to ask women. I would imagine most would say that they can be modest without covering their heads.Quote:
Is modesty and submission no longer a concern for American Christian women?
Are you saying we should go back to this?
Well, I think it's unfair to say that women who don't cover care more about women's movements than their faith. I don't believe it's a universal requirement that women cover their heads. Many view Paul's comments on it as a specific charge to a specific church dealing with a specific problem. That women don't cover isn't an indictment on their faith at all.Create Account said:
I'm sure you can find a Muslim woman who doesn't cover. Or an American Christian woman who does. But the vast majority do not. I'm not saying one way or the other. Just found it curious that Muslims have no problem covering. Or unaffected by the reasons you gave - unequality, patriarchy, poor treatment. They willingly submit and dress modestly. They care more about their religion or faith tradition than women's movements.
I agree. Just saying that Muslim women are unaffected. It seems Christian women not covering is a very recent development in Christianity - in particular western countries. Hard for me to say that the church had it wrong for all that time with respect to Paul's comments or whatever.PacifistAg said:Well, I think it's unfair to say that women who don't cover care more about women's movements than their faith. I don't believe it's a universal requirement that women cover their heads. Many view Paul's comments on it as a specific charge to a specific church dealing with a specific problem. That women don't cover isn't an indictment on their faith at all.Create Account said:
I'm sure you can find a Muslim woman who doesn't cover. Or an American Christian woman who does. But the vast majority do not. I'm not saying one way or the other. Just found it curious that Muslims have no problem covering. Or unaffected by the reasons you gave - unequality, patriarchy, poor treatment. They willingly submit and dress modestly. They care more about their religion or faith tradition than women's movements.
Also, most women today simply follow the tradition they were raised in, and most women today (at least in America) weren't raised in communities that required head coverings.
I don't think anyone is saying anyone in particular had it wrong w/ regards to Paul's comments. I don't think churches requiring head covering are wrong. I think they just interpret the text differently. It's the 'universal vs specific' debate regarding some of Paul's teachings that has been around for a long time.Create Account said:I agree. Just saying that Muslim women are unaffected. It seems Christian women not covering is a very recent development in Christianity - in particular western countries. Hard for me to say that the church had it wrong for all that time with respect to Paul's comments or whatever.PacifistAg said:Well, I think it's unfair to say that women who don't cover care more about women's movements than their faith. I don't believe it's a universal requirement that women cover their heads. Many view Paul's comments on it as a specific charge to a specific church dealing with a specific problem. That women don't cover isn't an indictment on their faith at all.Create Account said:
I'm sure you can find a Muslim woman who doesn't cover. Or an American Christian woman who does. But the vast majority do not. I'm not saying one way or the other. Just found it curious that Muslims have no problem covering. Or unaffected by the reasons you gave - unequality, patriarchy, poor treatment. They willingly submit and dress modestly. They care more about their religion or faith tradition than women's movements.
Also, most women today simply follow the tradition they were raised in, and most women today (at least in America) weren't raised in communities that required head coverings.
Based Swimmerbabe11.swimmerbabe11 said:
I tend to hear prescriptive vs descriptive and commentary on culture of the period when this gets brought up. I'm fairly Switzerland on the issue and I would have no problem covering if my pastor asked me to.
Quote:
Romans 14:5b - Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
Along with this suggestion from Paul:Quote:
Romans 14:23b - For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
and Peter:Quote:
1 Timothy 2:9a - I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety
Quote:
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.
Create Account said:
We had a discussion about this last night. I think the Muslim women cover their head to show modesty and submission to men. They even do it in the U.S. and other western countries where that thinking is not popular. Should Christian women do this?
Orko said:
I may be stating the obvious, but I've seen a lot of references to tradition being the reason that this is sometimes done. The actual basis for it is in an epistle of Paul.
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head...Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
1 Cor 11
Also, of note, all you long-haired degenerates need to keep it high and tight!!
tehmackdaddy said:
There is no command for women to wear head-coverings. There is only the reminder of the liberty of each woman to do what she feels best honors God.Quote:
Romans 14:5b - Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.Along with this suggestion from Paul:Quote:
Romans 14:23b - For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.and Peter:Quote:
1 Timothy 2:9a - I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and proprietyQuote:
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.
No one has any authority to tell or suggest what Christian women should do with regards to head-coverings. Each woman's own conscience will guide her.
Might as well throw in wearing jewelry and speaking in Church while we're at it.Quote:
There are denominations in the U.S. that took this scripture as a command very seriously until not all that long ago. I grew up in one.
Never understood the rationale for throwing this one out. It seems extremely cut and dried, no? Who are we to disregard what Paul taught?
Marco Esquandolas said:tehmackdaddy said:
There is no command for women to wear head-coverings. There is only the reminder of the liberty of each woman to do what she feels best honors God.Quote:
Romans 14:5b - Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.Along with this suggestion from Paul:Quote:
Romans 14:23b - For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.and Peter:Quote:
1 Timothy 2:9a - I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and proprietyQuote:
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.
No one has any authority to tell or suggest what Christian women should do with regards to head-coverings. Each woman's own conscience will guide her.
This seems in direct conflict with 1 Corinthians 11, quoted above. Seems Paul pretty clearly reserved that authority for himself.
ramblin_ag02 said:Might as well throw in wearing jewelry and speaking in Church while we're at it.Quote:
There are denominations in the U.S. that took this scripture as a command very seriously until not all that long ago. I grew up in one.
Never understood the rationale for throwing this one out. It seems extremely cut and dried, no? Who are we to disregard what Paul taught?
Aggie4Life02 said:Marco Esquandolas said:tehmackdaddy said:
There is no command for women to wear head-coverings. There is only the reminder of the liberty of each woman to do what she feels best honors God.Quote:
Romans 14:5b - Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.Along with this suggestion from Paul:Quote:
Romans 14:23b - For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.and Peter:Quote:
1 Timothy 2:9a - I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and proprietyQuote:
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.
No one has any authority to tell or suggest what Christian women should do with regards to head-coverings. Each woman's own conscience will guide her.
This seems in direct conflict with 1 Corinthians 11, quoted above. Seems Paul pretty clearly reserved that authority for himself.
Actually, Paul's point is that a woman's hair is her covering.
That's because patriarchy is a natural hierarchy. The food chain isn't wont to change quickly either.Marco Esquandolas said:Aggie4Life02 said:Marco Esquandolas said:tehmackdaddy said:
There is no command for women to wear head-coverings. There is only the reminder of the liberty of each woman to do what she feels best honors God.Quote:
Romans 14:5b - Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.Along with this suggestion from Paul:Quote:
Romans 14:23b - For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.and Peter:Quote:
1 Timothy 2:9a - I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and proprietyQuote:
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.
No one has any authority to tell or suggest what Christian women should do with regards to head-coverings. Each woman's own conscience will guide her.
This seems in direct conflict with 1 Corinthians 11, quoted above. Seems Paul pretty clearly reserved that authority for himself.
Actually, Paul's point is that a woman's hair is her covering.
I mean maybe, but in practice entire denominations interpreted to mean "women have to wear hats or scarves in church." That is what people actually did. It was a custom for decades and it was enforced. At some point churches made up some kind of justification for doing away with it. But not the part about women keeping their mouths shut in church. Because Protestants are nothing if not consistent. Patriarchy dies a lot slower than fashion choices.
In any case the justification Paul gives is "because angels" which is absolutely hilarious.