The Point of the Book of Job

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PacifistAg
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5:24p, 10/16/18
AG
The Point of the Book of Job

Okay, I really would like a genuine, respectful discussion about this. It's a longer piece, but very much worth it. I decided against posting snippets from the article so as to let others read and decide what aspects they'd like to discuss, versus just reading the snippets alone and focusing on that.



“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
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Duncan Idaho
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5:36p, 10/16/18
Harold kushner's book when bad things happen to good people was a comforting read when I was battling cancer.

It basically lays out this same position

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Woody2006
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5:39p, 10/16/18
AG
I think the point of Job is that it's totally no big deal for God to wipe our your entire family in the most heinous way possible as long as he provides you a new one later.
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to Woody2006 • 5:49p, 10/16/18
Woody2006 said:
I think the point of Job is that it's totally no big deal for God to wipe our your entire family in the most heinous way possible as long as he provides you a new one later.

The suspension of empathy required to read job is mind blowing.

I don't know how anyone raised that the Bible is literally true can read that poem and say "man God surely is great. I mean sure he killed my wife and kids but he gave me upgrades later."

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PacifistAg
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 5:56p, 10/16/18
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
Woody2006 said:
I think the point of Job is that it's totally no big deal for God to wipe our your entire family in the most heinous way possible as long as he provides you a new one later.

The suspension of empathy required to read job is mind blowing.

I don't know how anyone raised that the Bible is literally true can read that poem and say "man God surely is great. I mean sure he killed my wife and kids but he gave me upgrades later."

Well, I don't believe it's position is that God killed Job's wife and children. In fact, as the article points out, that's a flawed theology that the actual point of the story is meant to refute.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to PacifistAg • 6:04p, 10/16/18
PacifistAg said:
Duncan Idaho said:
Woody2006 said:
I think the point of Job is that it's totally no big deal for God to wipe our your entire family in the most heinous way possible as long as he provides you a new one later.

The suspension of empathy required to read job is mind blowing.

I don't know how anyone raised that the Bible is literally true can read that poem and say "man God surely is great. I mean sure he killed my wife and kids but he gave me upgrades later."

Well, I don't believe it's position is that God killed Job's wife and children. In fact, as the article points out, that's a flawed theology that the actual point of the story is meant to refute.

I don't he did either. Which is why I made the comment about reading it literally. And I agree with the premise that God doesn't have your baby fall out of a 10 story window to teach other parents to watch thier kids more closely.

My point about empathy still stands. Every one in the story's universe but God the devil and job are interchangeable players without souls or value. It just paints God and his creation in such a wierd aweful light.
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Orko
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6:51p, 10/16/18
AG
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
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craigernaught
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In reply to Woody2006 • 7:29a, 10/17/18
AG
I think this is the typical response of people who haven't read Job or have read chapters 1-3, the ending, and skipped over the rest. What Job is primarily "about" is contained in Job's and his friends' speeches.

If you're trying to get a hot take or a shortcut to "the point" as so many Christians do, you tend to focus on the beginnings and the end and God's speech near the conclusion. I think this is a mistake.

Edit: this reads way more negative or sarcastic than I intended. Apologies.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to craigernaught • 7:54a, 10/17/18
craigernaught said:
I think this is the typical response of people who haven't read Job or have read chapters 1-3, the ending, and skipped over the rest. What Job is primarily "about" is contained in Job's and his friends' speeches.

If you're trying to get a hot take or a shortcut to "the point" as so many Christians do, you tend to focus on the beginnings and the end and God's speech near the conclusion. I think this is a mistake.
yes. Job's and his friends' speeches teach us that we have no idea what the hell God is doing with the circumstances of our lives and why.
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craigernaught
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8:01a, 10/17/18
AG
I thought the article was interesting, but like Job, it's most interesting when it focuses on Job and his friends in their response to grief. I think the article's claim that "The point of the book of Job is to teach us that the mystery of evil is a mystery of a war-torn and unfathomably complex creation, not the mystery of God's all-controlling will" is wrong. It seems to "defend God" when the Book of Job has little interest in doing that as if God needs our protection. I'm also not a fan of the article's attempt to create some sort of theology for Job's character. It's a silly and unnecessary way to read the text. Job's character is primarily responding out of anger and grief to his family dying and his life ruined. There's no need to think that these responses constitute some type of contained, measured theology instead of a poetic response to suffering to which the reader can relate.

It's better, I think, to consider Job in light of an ancient (and modern) theological view assumed by Job's friends in their various speeches. The assumption is that "God punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous", but if God isn't doing that, as this text makes clear, then what is God doing?

Back in my ministry days, I presided over a lot of funerals. Some were joyous events celebrating life well lived. Some were just gut wrenching. Young people. Tragedies. A neighborhood shooting right outside my window where the guy was executed for calling the cops reporting car break-ins. Still born children and their confused, angry parents. Job's anger gave me comfort because he was honest, furious, and God doesn't reject that anger. When I was struggling with whether or not to leave the ministry and feeling abandoned by God, I would read Job's speeches out loud in the empty sanctuary. His words have power. The "resolution" was secondary.

But Job is angry with God and his friends are angry with him for the same reason: they think the other isn't abiding by the orthodox (little o) theological rules. God should be rewarding the righteous like Job and isn't. God is punishing Job for being wicked so Job should accept it. His friends are putting him on trial and he ably answers. Job wants to put God on trial and then God shows up. Everyone is then put to shame. The setup is great but can the author of Job really depict how God would react? The setup is awesome but the ending feels a bit like a let down to me, probably because I want less of a God like an ancient king and more of a God as a suffering servant.

God's (who I think is a character in the story rather than a direct, accurate depiction of what God is like) response can't really be appropriately summarized, but he essentially says that they don't understand God. They don't understand the world. And their assumptions about "what God must be like" are wrong.

I'm unsatisfied by the "cosmic battle" depiction that the article creates as I think that's an enormous stretch from the text. Also, I don't think that the ending is supposed to be "happy". We assume the ancient writers and readers would think this is a satisfactory conclusion, for reasons I don't understand. The ancient reader would assume, just like we do, that his success and family are good, but that it doesn't erase the tragedy.

We're left with the conclusion not that God is just, but that the world isn't. And that however it is, we're not alone. Even his friends are there, at one time being wonderful, sitting silently mourning, and then unhelpfully by preaching to him in his grief. The book provides few answers, nor does it tell us what God is doing. Luckily, Job isn't the only text to tackle that problem, but it should encourage us to be more humble in our answers.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Woody2006 • 8:04a, 10/17/18
Woody2006 said:
I think the point of Job is that it's totally no big deal for God to wipe our your entire family in the most heinous way possible as long as he provides you a new one later.
I think his wife lived. Who else would there be to nag Job to curse God and die?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Orko • 8:06a, 10/17/18
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 8:08a, 10/17/18
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.
This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
What is your view of God? I'm curious.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 8:28a, 10/17/18
Martin Q. Blank said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.
This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
What is your view of God? I'm curious.


Maximal possible being. Which would logically include omnibenevolent.
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diehard03
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8:32a, 10/17/18
Quote:
probably because I want less of a God like an ancient king and more of a God as a suffering servant.

First off, thanks for your post and interweaving your personal journey through it. We need more of that here.

I feel like I want both of these things at different times. Having one without the other might cause us to take them for granted, in a strange way.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 8:38a, 10/17/18
Dr. Watson said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.
This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
What is your view of God? I'm curious.
Maximal possible being. Which would logically include omnibenevolent.
Yes, we experience pain, suffering, and death. How is that omnibenevolent?
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Orko
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 10:10a, 10/17/18
AG
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 11:05a, 10/17/18
Martin Q. Blank said:
Dr. Watson said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.
This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
What is your view of God? I'm curious.
Maximal possible being. Which would logically include omnibenevolent.
Yes, we experience pain, suffering, and death. How is that omnibenevolent?


It's not. Your god is not the maximal possible being of which even a lowly human can conceive. Which means there's no reason to assume it is the locus of everything. All you have is a really powerful mobster according to the OT. No reason to assume it is the alpha and omega if it is not consistent to any principles beyond power.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Orko • 11:06a, 10/17/18
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.


Why is it necessary for a God to torture his creation before it can have good things? Do you torture your children before giving them rewards?
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Orko • 11:07a, 10/17/18
AG
I always liked Job. It reminded me of the Gospels, specifically of the passion. One of my biggest problems growing up Christian is that the world didn't match the world I heard about in Church. Like what was said above, the Church of Nice. I'd more call it the Church of Comfort, but Church of Nice works well too.

It's all well and good to say that God is great and good and loves all of us. But when your grandmother is suffering from cancer, your young cousin dies in an accidental tragedy, and you're trying to cope with depression, then the Church of Comfort has nothing to offer. But then you go read Job or the passion of Jesus. These were good people, the best people. And they suffered horribly for reasons bigger than us. We know the reasons for the passion, but we don't know the reason's for Job. But we know there are reasons. That suffering is awful, but it was important. It meant something.

That's one reason I can't stand universalism. If we're all going to end up blissfull anyway, then why not just start with that? Why have so many people suffer so much if none of it matters anyway?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Orko
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:10a, 10/17/18
AG
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.


Why is it necessary for a God to torture his creation before it can have good things? Do you torture your children before giving them rewards?
I don't think you quite get the "don't question God's will, just submit fully and trust him" part.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 11:11a, 10/17/18
ramblin_ag02 said:
I always liked Job. It reminded me of the Gospels, specifically of the passion. One of my biggest problems growing up Christian is that the world didn't match the world I heard about in Church. Like what was said above, the Church of Nice. I'd more call it the Church of Comfort, but Church of Nice works well too.

It's all well and good to say that God is great and good and loves all of us. But when your grandmother is suffering from cancer, your young cousin dies in an accidental tragedy, and you're trying to cope with depression, then the Church of Comfort has nothing to offer. But then you go read Job or the passion of Jesus. These were good people, the best people. And they suffered horribly for reasons bigger than us. We know the reasons for the passion, but we don't know the reason's for Job. But we know there are reasons. That suffering is awful, but it was important. It meant something.

That's one reason I can't stand universalism. If we're all going to end up blissfull anyway, then why not just start with that? Why have so many people suffer so much if none of it matters anyway?


Job in particular helped drive me away from Christianity. It's one thing to read it. It's another to see people suffering similar things in the flesh and know nothing can be done for them. It's sickening. I found zero comfort in books like Job. Quite the opposite. It all felt capricious and pointless.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Orko • 11:11a, 10/17/18
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.


Why is it necessary for a God to torture his creation before it can have good things? Do you torture your children before giving them rewards?
I don't think you quite get the "don't question God's will, just submit fully and trust him" part.


I don't submit to mobsters.
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Orko
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 11:17a, 10/17/18
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
I always liked Job. It reminded me of the Gospels, specifically of the passion. One of my biggest problems growing up Christian is that the world didn't match the world I heard about in Church. Like what was said above, the Church of Nice. I'd more call it the Church of Comfort, but Church of Nice works well too.

It's all well and good to say that God is great and good and loves all of us. But when your grandmother is suffering from cancer, your young cousin dies in an accidental tragedy, and you're trying to cope with depression, then the Church of Comfort has nothing to offer. But then you go read Job or the passion of Jesus. These were good people, the best people. And they suffered horribly for reasons bigger than us. We know the reasons for the passion, but we don't know the reason's for Job. But we know there are reasons. That suffering is awful, but it was important. It meant something.

That's one reason I can't stand universalism. If we're all going to end up blissfull anyway, then why not just start with that? Why have so many people suffer so much if none of it matters anyway?
You don't know how nice it is to hear someone else express this sentiment. Church of Comfort may be an even better expression for what I was referring to. Have a blue star!

Job shows us that even the righteous will suffer. If you trust in God, and submit to his will, all will be made whole in the end.

400 to 700 years after the book was written, God sends his very own son to suffer the same kind of fate, but his Son perseveres and overcomes, never doubting. Job, like so many of the Old Testament books is just a foreshadowing of Christ and dialogue about what God expects of us.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:18a, 10/17/18
AG
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.


Why is it necessary for a God to torture his creation before it can have good things? Do you torture your children before giving them rewards?
I know this will be obvious, but I don't believe that God causes pain and suffering. I don't believe He kills people. I don't believe He tortures His creation, and I don't believe death and destruction are part of His will. I think that's the danger of flawed theology coming from a misunderstanding of Job. So often I hear "well, God gives and takes away", but that position is actually refuted by God at the end of Job. It was Job's misunderstanding of the nature of God, and there's no way we can know the "why" of bad things happening.

It's not God's will that a baby be stillborn, or any other tragedy.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:19a, 10/17/18
Dr. Watson said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Dr. Watson said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.
This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
What is your view of God? I'm curious.
Maximal possible being. Which would logically include omnibenevolent.
Yes, we experience pain, suffering, and death. How is that omnibenevolent?
It's not. Your god is not the maximal possible being of which even a lowly human can conceive. Which means there's no reason to assume it is the locus of everything. All you have is a really powerful mobster according to the OT. No reason to assume it is the alpha and omega if it is not consistent to any principles beyond power.
So your god doesn't exist?
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FightinTexasAggie08
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:21a, 10/17/18
Dr. Watson said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
I always liked Job. It reminded me of the Gospels, specifically of the passion. One of my biggest problems growing up Christian is that the world didn't match the world I heard about in Church. Like what was said above, the Church of Nice. I'd more call it the Church of Comfort, but Church of Nice works well too.

It's all well and good to say that God is great and good and loves all of us. But when your grandmother is suffering from cancer, your young cousin dies in an accidental tragedy, and you're trying to cope with depression, then the Church of Comfort has nothing to offer. But then you go read Job or the passion of Jesus. These were good people, the best people. And they suffered horribly for reasons bigger than us. We know the reasons for the passion, but we don't know the reason's for Job. But we know there are reasons. That suffering is awful, but it was important. It meant something.

That's one reason I can't stand universalism. If we're all going to end up blissfull anyway, then why not just start with that? Why have so many people suffer so much if none of it matters anyway?


Job in particular helped drive me away from Christianity. It's one thing to read it. It's another to see people suffering similar things in the flesh and know nothing can be done for them. It's sickening. I found zero comfort in books like Job. Quite the opposite. It all felt capricious and pointless.
That's weird. It should have driven you away from Judaism. Christianity says this bad stuff happened because of X; but Jesus took care to make things better with his sacrifice.

Judaism said this bad stuff happened and we're hoping someday God makes it better.
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Orko
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:22a, 10/17/18
AG
PacifistAg said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.


Why is it necessary for a God to torture his creation before it can have good things? Do you torture your children before giving them rewards?
I know this will be obvious, but I don't believe that God causes pain and suffering. I don't believe He kills people. I don't believe He tortures His creation, and I don't believe death and destruction are part of His will. I think that's the danger of flawed theology coming from a misunderstanding of Job. So often I hear "well, God gives and takes away", but that position is actually refuted by God at the end of Job. It was Job's misunderstanding of the nature of God, and there's no way we can know the "why" of bad things happening.
Pacifist, I think you are walking on some dangerous ground there. You probably should not convert your desires into actual attributes of God. God is. Or, to put it more fully, God is what he chooses.

Hope all you want, but don't preach something that isn't found in the Bible.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
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FightinTexasAggie08
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11:24a, 10/17/18
It seems to me that atheists and agnostics like to have their cake and eat it to. They decry a God as evil that would allow anyone to suffer for an eternity of hell; justifying it that compared to eternity of hell, nothing that happens during a course of a normal human life could even compare; and vice versa.

However, they change the argument around and question how a God could allow someone to suffer through the same period of human life which was earlier insignifcant in exchange for an eternity of bliss.

Can someone explain that to me?
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Bryanisbest
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11:25a, 10/17/18
AG
Job: God withdraws His protective hand and allows Satan to attack us within limits. He does it for a good and redemptive purpose: that we might come to the end (death of) the egoic self, surrender ourselves and be totally dependent on God becoming Christ-centered and motivated by His love in all things. This means we must experience the cross followed by His resurrection life and power. Job pictures this process.
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FightinTexasAggie08
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In reply to Bryanisbest • 11:26a, 10/17/18
Bryanisbest said:
Job: God withdraws His protective hand and allows Satan to attack us within limits. He does it for a good and redemptive purpose: that we might come to the end (death of) the egoic self, surrender ourselves and be totally dependent on God becoming Christ-centered and motivated by His love in all things. This means we must experience the cross followed by His resurrection life and power. Job pictures this process.
Quote:
This means we must experience the cross followed by His resurrection life and power. Job pictures this process.

Blue star for getting in the process in the right order
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Orko • 11:31a, 10/17/18
AG
Orko said:
PacifistAg said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.


Why is it necessary for a God to torture his creation before it can have good things? Do you torture your children before giving them rewards?
I know this will be obvious, but I don't believe that God causes pain and suffering. I don't believe He kills people. I don't believe He tortures His creation, and I don't believe death and destruction are part of His will. I think that's the danger of flawed theology coming from a misunderstanding of Job. So often I hear "well, God gives and takes away", but that position is actually refuted by God at the end of Job. It was Job's misunderstanding of the nature of God, and there's no way we can know the "why" of bad things happening.
Pacifist, I think you are walking on some dangerous ground there. You probably should not convert your desires into actual attributes of God. God is. Or, to put it more fully, God is what he chooses.

Hope all you want, but don't preach something that isn't found in the Bible.
Not on dangerous ground at all. I believe God looks like Jesus. I'm not converting my desires into actual attributes of God. My understanding of God is grounded in Jesus and what Christ reveals about God's nature. I'm not preaching something outside the bible. My understanding of Job is based solely on what is found in Job and understood through a cruciform lens.
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Orko
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:42a, 10/17/18
AG
PacifistAg said:
Orko said:
PacifistAg said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Dr. Watson said:
Orko said:
Job 38-42

Don't question God and his will, for you are nothing in comparison. Repent and ask for his mercy. He alone holds the fate of existence in his hands.


This view of God is so strange to me. It treats God like a mobster.
That is a little bit of that Church of Nice theology showing through. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. The entire Bible to me is about submission to God absolutely and placing trust in him.

The New Testament is another great example of this and parallels closely with Job, except Jesus doesn't fall to temptation ever.

You have the Messiah, living a righteous life, resisting temptation by Satan, and eventually crying tears of blood and asking to be relieved of the horrendous fate that God has chosen for him. Within moments he submits to God's will and dies a horrible, torturous death on the request of the Jews and at the hands of the Gentiles. That is Job up to chapter 41.

Then Christ is resurrected and eventually takes his place as the Son at the Father's right hand. That is Job Chapter 42.

Job isn't complicated, we just make it so because, as another poster put it once, we Christians want our Paschal Sunday without having our Good Friday. Submit to God, don't question his will, have faith in his plan, and it will all work out in the end.


Why is it necessary for a God to torture his creation before it can have good things? Do you torture your children before giving them rewards?
I know this will be obvious, but I don't believe that God causes pain and suffering. I don't believe He kills people. I don't believe He tortures His creation, and I don't believe death and destruction are part of His will. I think that's the danger of flawed theology coming from a misunderstanding of Job. So often I hear "well, God gives and takes away", but that position is actually refuted by God at the end of Job. It was Job's misunderstanding of the nature of God, and there's no way we can know the "why" of bad things happening.
Pacifist, I think you are walking on some dangerous ground there. You probably should not convert your desires into actual attributes of God. God is. Or, to put it more fully, God is what he chooses.

Hope all you want, but don't preach something that isn't found in the Bible.
Not on dangerous ground at all. I believe God looks like Jesus. I'm not converting my desires into actual attributes of God. My understanding of God is grounded in Jesus and what Christ reveals about God's nature. I'm not preaching something outside the bible. My understanding of Job is based solely on what is found in Job and understood through a cruciform lens.
Don't read Samuel or Isaiah then.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Orko • 11:46a, 10/17/18
AG
I love Samuel and Isaiah, especially reading them with the knowledge that God looks like Christ crucified. That clears up a lot of issues.
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Orko
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:51a, 10/17/18
AG
PacifistAg said:
I love Samuel and Isaiah, especially reading them with the knowledge that God looks like Christ crucified. That clears up a lot of issues.
Boys and girls, this is what is looks like when you try to fit God into a box you've created rather than respect and submit to his will, power, and authority.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
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