Russian Orthodox Church breaks with Constantinople over Ukraine

1,917 Views | 18 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Zobel
FightinTexasAggie08
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/15/russian-orthodox-church-cuts-ties-with-constantinople

That's 150,000,000 of the 300,000,000 orthodox Christians no longer in Communion with the primus inter pares.
Martin Q. Blank
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I love their hats.


ramblin_ag02
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AG
I like the glasses. It's like seeing a wristwatch on an Indian in a western
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Orko
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AG
Sullys Guy said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/15/russian-orthodox-church-cuts-ties-with-constantinople

That's 150,000,000 of the 300,000,000 orthodox Christians no longer in Communion with the primus inter pares.
Do any Orthodox guys want to chime in on the impact that this will have, preferably not the "Orthodox because its trendy" guys, but those who actually study their religion?
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

preferably not the "Orthodox because its trendy" guys
I know we have been clashing lately, but I'm genuinely curious as to who you're talking about. I can only think of 3, maybe 4, Orthodox posters here and I can't think of any who are "Orthodox because its trendy". This isn't an argumentative question, but I'm just curious who you're actually referring to.
TheFirebird
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AG
KA few points:

1. What this immediately means is that Russian clergy and laity cannot commune at Ecumenical (EP) churches. The EP controls very few churches itself and in practice it's not a big issue in day to day religious life.

2. This will change if other Churches (especially Serbia, Antioch, and Jerusalem) follow Moscow's lead. They very well may, as the decision by the EP was unwelcome in those churches and was likely uncanonical. They may take a more measured approach, though.

3. The EP doesn't have a firm canonical leg to stand on here which is why other Orthodox churches view his actions as a power grab and as making a claim to be not "first among equals" but "first above all."

4. While the EP is right about is that the Moscow Patriarchate (MP)had lost all credibility in Ukraine and that some body there needed to be granted autocephaly. The MP hierarch in Ukraine was hopelessly in the tank for Russia, refused to condemn the Russian invasion of his own country, and offered only mealy-mouthed calls for "peace" on all sides. This "apolitical" stance is absurd in the extreme, it's a bit like calling for "peace on both sides" between a homeowner and the person who has broken in and taken his family hostage. By doing so he made himself a completely unacceptable figure to the majority of Orthodox in Ukraine who also want to be Ukrainian.

I myself was baptized into the Russian Church and while I accept that legal canonical grounds for the EP move are questionable, my sympathies are strongly with the Ukrainians here and I don't see another way out. I am hoping the EP does not follow suit and announce broken communion with Russian Christians and will drive the point home about who is being the bigger Christian here.

TL;DR: The Russian Church is right about the fine points of canon law here but wrong in the sense that it is wholly co-opted by a brutal, mendacious Kremlin regime and is allowing itself to be cynically used as a tool to further an illegal war against fellow Orthodox Christians. The EP is wrong about canon law, is possibly using the situation to expand his own authority; but is right about the fact that it is absurd to expect most Ukrainian Christians to remain under the authority of a hierarch that is actively backing a war against them and their country.
Zobel
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AG
Honestly, impact is basically zero. It will pass.

There are those among the Orthodox who have viewed and continue to view the Moscow Patriarchate with skepticism for decades, going back to the utter corruption it experienced during the Soviet Union.

These kind of things are not well understood and are therefore not really presented well in the media. This is not a theological schism, this has nothing to do with Orthodoxy (i.e., right belief or worship) as a faith.

I have been told by my priest that these kind of things do not apply to the laity.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

These kind of things are not well understood and are therefore not really presented well in the media. This is not a theological schism, this has nothing to do with Orthodoxy (i.e., right belief or worship) as a faith.
What kind of schism is it then?
TheFirebird
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

k2aggie07 said:

JThese kind of things are not well understood and are therefore not really presented well in the media. This is not a theological schism, this has nothing to do with Orthodoxy (i.e., right belief or worship) as a faith.
What kind of schism is it then?
It's a schism over who has the authority to tell the Ukrainian Church that they have the right to govern themselves. The EP says he can; Moscow says no way.
Zobel
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AG
Unfortunately it is a pastoral (political) one. There are no theological differences between Moscow and Constantinople.
Martin Q. Blank
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TheFirebird said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

k2aggie07 said:

JThese kind of things are not well understood and are therefore not really presented well in the media. This is not a theological schism, this has nothing to do with Orthodoxy (i.e., right belief or worship) as a faith.
What kind of schism is it then?
It's a schism over who has the authority to tell the Ukrainian Church that they have the right to govern themselves. The EP says he can; Moscow says no way.
And what was the great schism about?
Zobel
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AG
Lots of things. Primary among them being two:

The filioque is a fundamental disagreement over the language we used to describe the Trinity. It also puts us with two symbols of faith, which is our affirmation and confession of what we believe.

The use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist in the Western church is a novelty, historically speaking, and was a major point of theological dispute around the time of the great Schism. There are a lot of theological implications in the difference between using leavened and unleavened bread.
TheFirebird
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K2 is right. Even though we moderns have difficulty taking seriously the filioque controversy and the leavened/unleavened bread argument, these things did and do have theological meaning. They impacted the praxis of the Church.

This argument is completely over Church government, or rather, over geopolitics by proxy.
Orko
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AG
This is interesting. Thanks for informing.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
Quad Dog
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Quote:

There are a lot of theological implications in the difference between using leavened and unleavened bread.
Can we get a explanation on those implications for dummies?
jkag89
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If this article gives an accurate picture of the situation, it appears to be entirely a split along geopolitical lines which hopefully will heal over time when cooler heads prevail.
Zobel
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AG
The early church uniformly used leaven bread. This was because the liturgy was viewed as the victory celebration of Christ over all of His enemies, culminating in the faithful eating and drinking the new manna in the new kingdom. It is the partaking of the promise now, a foretaste of the end of the final covenant. In this regard leaven is necessary. The unleavened bread of the first Passover, which is the type or shadow of Christ who is our Passover (as St Paul teaches). The unleavened bread is the bread of bitterness, of haste. It is the not the bread of victory and joy.

Christ is also our thank offering, and our praise offering, our sin offering, everything. He is every sacrifice made in the old covenant, or really they foretell Him. To limit it to the paschal sacrifice hides this.

In the liturgy, the traditional understanding is that Christians offer themselves as living sacrifices to God, and in this offering they participate in the once for all sacrifice of Christ. They are the body of Christ and they complete what is lacking in Christ's suffering by becoming the body. And His body is sacrificed, so they as His body are sacrificed. This is the "logike latreia," the worship which is proper to rational beings, the worship of humans. We sacrifice ourselves, and we are the leaven of the world, so the bread is us as we are Him.

Later - much later - in the west and even after that somewhat in the east a view came about that was less of a common act and more of a dramatic or symbological interpretation. In this the service is a kind of re-enactment of the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ to call the laity to remembrance. In the medieval times it was even thought in some circles in the West that the laity didn't even need to take communion - that they would observe and the priests would partake in their behalf. Of course the remembrance is part of it in the earlier view as well, but it is not the main goal. In this environment the act of the Eucharist became a re-enactment if the last supper, and therefore the bread was thought to be best shown as unleavened. And under this the sacrifice became in some circles to be thought as a re-sacrifice of Christ, and not an ongoing union with His once for all sacrifice with daily sacrifice of the faithful.

All of this was part of the theological debates surrounding the use of unleavened bread.
BigO_02
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I was baptized into the Orthodox Faith by Ukrainians during the Cold War and the issues dating back to the Soviets and the MP. My mother is Ukrainian and came to this country as a 2 yo from France after the Army of Occupation mandated a trip to the US or back behind the Iron Curtain for my Grandparents. My Grandmother was from Western Ukraine and my Grandfather from Eastern Ukraine. My Grandparents only met and married because of WWII. My Grandfather and his family survived the forced famine by the Soviets in the 30s. The relocation of Ukrainians in Eastern Ukraine to Siberia and the massive atrocities imposed by Stalin make this a very complicated issue. Politically very similar to Northern Ireland vs Ireland (Roman Catholic vs Protestant) political struggles but with much more violence, death, and hatred. I can elaborate more but I will end it here.

I give my biographical background to let you know that I am not impartial in this discussion. My opinion is very biased. It was 100% wrong for the USA to turn its back on Ukraine after promising them to protect their sovereignty in exchange for nuclear disarmament in the 1990s. This division is very political and deeply rooted in history. NOT a Theological break. Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox have nothing different about them except they personally hate each others guts!
"Cowards die many times before their deaths, the valiant never taste of death but once"
Zobel
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AG
I came across this paper on Logike Latreia today. I really liked it, thought I might share...

https://www.academia.edu/4209148/_Logik%C4%93_latreia_Romans_12_1_as_a_Definition_of_Liturgy_Logos_A_Journal_of_Eastern_Christian_Studies_52_1-2_2011_109-124
Zobel
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Here is the takeaway from that article for me - especially perhaps for people who come from non-liturgical backgrounds.

"A sacrifice because the Christian lives an upright and moral life is not correct. Because, de facto, a good life in itself is not a sacrifice. A sacrifice is effected when something is offered to God."

and

"[It] is not simply that we replace bad morality with good morality but that we belong to Jesus Christ who saves."

In other words, don't do better, but be better. Which is nice, because there is only one way to be better, and that is by sacrificing yourself freely to to Him.

I also love the point that the only other time in the NT the word logike is used is in regard to what we should crave, the pure rational (logike) milk of the Word. It reminds me of a translation of Psalm 130 (131) that my godfather has painted where he works..."I have calmed and quieted my soul like a child at its mother's breast".
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