"Baptist Minister"

Nuff said

Sullys Guy said:

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"Baptist Minister"

Nuff said

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It's a woman. This Baptist church isn't very fundamentalist at all. My father would call this woman heretical.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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This is what happens when you ignore God's word.

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Yup. You can't just throw out two thousand years of teaching and religious development without something like this happening. Even the reformers didn't just all of a sudden think they were the only people in fifteen hundred years that read the Bible correctly. They saw themselves as the successors to the orthodox theological development of the middle ages. New age Christians just make up stuff whole cloth.

Sullys Guy said:

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"Baptist Minister"

Nuff said

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I don't understand. What do you mean?

94chem said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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"Baptist Minister"

Nuff said

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I don't understand. What do you mean?

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There is no such thing as a Christian female minister.

Fewer Crusader moms. Fewer moms like this. More moms who raise their sons to be imitators of Christ.

That works too. Need more shepherds out there watching the flock and protecting them against the evils of this world.

Duties of a Shepherd

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The duties of a shepherd in an unenclosed country like Palestine were very onerous. "In early morning he led forth the flock from the fold, marching at its head to the spot where they were to be pastured. Here he watched them all day, taking care that none of the sheep strayed, and if any for a time eluded his watch and wandered away from the rest, seeking diligently till he found and brought it back. In those lands sheep require to be supplied regularly with water, and the shepherd for this purpose has to guide them either to some running stream or to wells dug in the wilderness and furnished with troughs. At night he brought the flock home to the fold, counting them as they passed under the rod at the door to assure himself that none were missing. Nor did his labours always end with sunset. Often he had to guard the fold through the dark hours from the attack of wild beasts, or the wily attempts of the prowling thief."

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Also.

But David said to Saul, "Your servant has been keeping his father's sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. The Lord who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine."

Saul said to David, "Go, and the Lord be with you."

1 Samual 17:34-37

I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

yah, this woman should lay down her life for her sheeple.

Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

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yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

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Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

See, there I go. Monday morning and already breaking my personal rule about engaging with white "advocates".

PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

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What was to be gained by violence with regards to his sacrifice? He had to die to save his sheep; not the same in the analogy mentioned above; where if the Shepherd actually dies; his sheep get killed.

Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

---

What was to be gained by violence with regards to his sacrifice? He had to die to save his sheep; not the same in the analogy mentioned above; where if the Shepherd actually dies; his sheep get killed.

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Moving that goalpost. Like I said, the Good Shepherd is the one we are called to imitate, and He's laid His life down nonviolently. Not to mention, our enemies aren't "flesh and blood", so we do not use "flesh and blood" weapons. The lost are not our enemies, they are our mission. We fight evil, not with violence, but with the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. I know how much you hate this, but....

Quote:

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Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

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Quote:

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Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

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Notice that it's not "killing" for his friends, but "laying his life down". I know I'm thankful the early church got this, or else Paul wouldn't have written half the NT and we'd never know who Stephen was.

Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

---

What was to be gained by violence with regards to his sacrifice? He had to die to save his sheep; not the same in the analogy mentioned above; where if the Shepherd actually dies; his sheep get killed.

---

Moving that goalpost. Like I said, the Good Shepherd is the one we are called to imitate, and He's laid His life down nonviolently. Not to mention, our enemies aren't "flesh and blood", so we do not use "flesh and blood" weapons. The lost are not our enemies, they are our mission. We fight evil, not with violence, but with the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. I know how much you hate this, but....

Quote:

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Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

---

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Not moving the goalpost whatsoever, Jesus said a shepherd has to be prepared to die for his flock; Jesus died in defense of his flock; that doesn't mean he was advocating a shepherd lie down and die and in doing so lose his entire flock.

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Who are we called to imitate? Goalposts get heavy after a while, don't they? He didn't lose His entire flock by laying His life down. How little faith do you have in the power of the Spirit?

Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

---

What was to be gained by violence with regards to his sacrifice? He had to die to save his sheep; not the same in the analogy mentioned above; where if the Shepherd actually dies; his sheep get killed.

---

Moving that goalpost. Like I said, the Good Shepherd is the one we are called to imitate, and He's laid His life down nonviolently. Not to mention, our enemies aren't "flesh and blood", so we do not use "flesh and blood" weapons. The lost are not our enemies, they are our mission. We fight evil, not with violence, but with the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. I know how much you hate this, but....

Quote:

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Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

---

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Not moving the goalpost whatsoever, Jesus said a shepherd has to be prepared to die for his flock; Jesus died in defense of his flock; that doesn't mean he was advocating a shepherd lie down and die and in doing so lose his entire flock.

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Who are we called to imitate? Goalposts get heavy after a while, don't they?

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We're called to imitate Christ. In a situation where violence would achieve nothing; it's stupid to practice violence. This is why he rebuked Peter; not for the violence, but because it wasn't the proper venue. When violence was proper; Christ whirled the lash.

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Christ didn't use violence against people in the Temple. Or are you arguing that Isaiah 53:9 is wrong? What evidence is there of any of the Apostles resorting to violence (outside Peter being rebuked for such)? They were hunted down by Saul, but did not resort to violence. Stephen could have used violence to escape, but he imitated Christ.

Christ would do "no violence". And He rebuked Peter for multiple reasons. One of which was his participation in the cycle of violence (those who take up the sword perish by the sword).

PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

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As has already been said, I see nothing contradictory in a protective shepherd laying down his life to save the sheep. Christ is The Messiah, The Annointed One, but there are others (lesser for sure) who held similar titles like King David or even Cyrus the Great.

Lets look at King David, a man of war who spilled much blood. Because David was a warrior, he was not to build the House of God, but was God unhappy with him for the blood he spilled. Certainly not. King David holds a special place among those who have walked the earth. Behind Christ, for sure, but not condemned. The Bible even refers to him as a man after God's own heart. He is the warrior shepherd.

For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and did not turn aside from anything the LORD commanded all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

1 Kings 15:5

So, if you want to say that the highest calling is one of self-sacrifice in the face of your enemies, I wouldn't argue with you. However, to deny that there is a place for the warrior to protect God's people is just silly and easily contradicted numerous times in the Bible, including by Jesus himself in Revelations.

And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS

Rev. 19:11-16

PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

---

Pretty sure his death was pretty violent. I mean when he died the world changed and many things broke. Jesus' death was a pacifist death. It was a death where he took on the entire load of humanity's sin for himself and then died. Think about that for a minute. That is an action in defense of the people, it is not laying down his life in nonviolence. In death, because he took on every sin that has ever been committed, he was technically the single worst human of all time. That was his sacrifice. He became a monster to save humanity.

Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

---

What was to be gained by violence with regards to his sacrifice? He had to die to save his sheep; not the same in the analogy mentioned above; where if the Shepherd actually dies; his sheep get killed.

---

Moving that goalpost. Like I said, the Good Shepherd is the one we are called to imitate, and He's laid His life down nonviolently. Not to mention, our enemies aren't "flesh and blood", so we do not use "flesh and blood" weapons. The lost are not our enemies, they are our mission. We fight evil, not with violence, but with the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. I know how much you hate this, but....

Quote:

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Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

---

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Not moving the goalpost whatsoever, Jesus said a shepherd has to be prepared to die for his flock; Jesus died in defense of his flock; that doesn't mean he was advocating a shepherd lie down and die and in doing so lose his entire flock.

---

Who are we called to imitate? Goalposts get heavy after a while, don't they?

---

We're called to imitate Christ. In a situation where violence would achieve nothing; it's stupid to practice violence. This is why he rebuked Peter; not for the violence, but because it wasn't the proper venue. When violence was proper; Christ whirled the lash.

---

Christ didn't use violence against people in the Temple. Or are you arguing that Isaiah 53:9 is wrong?

Christ would do "no violence". And He rebuked Peter for multiple reasons. One of which was his participation in the cycle of violence (those who take up the sword perish by the sword).

---

What did Christ use against the people in the Temple? Threat of Violence? What is overturning tables? As a pacifist you're allowed to threaten someone with violence as long as you don't go through with it?

Isaiah is prophecy; it's not 1 to 1 accurate; you'lll notice in that same prophecy that Christ wasn't buried in a grave with the wicked; it's figurative.

And Christ specifically told his followers to make sure that they had swords with them, obviously he didn't want them all to die by the sword. You're looking into prophecy too literally.

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Christ didn't use violence or even threaten violence against people. Here's a good paper on the subject that delves into the original text and grammar. And my understanding of Isaiah 53:9 is consistent with His teachings and actions in life.

And Christ's command about the sword had nothing to do with defense. He explains the command in the very next verse. It was solely about the fulfillment of prophecy. If it had anything to do with self-defense, He wouldn't have told them two swords is enough. In fact, His response makes it clear that even then His disciples still missed the point.

Socially liberal NPC 888 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

---

Pretty sure his death was pretty violent. I mean when he died the world changed and many things broke. Jesus' death was a pacifist death. It was a death where he took on the entire load of humanity's sin for himself and then died. Think about that for a minute. That is an action in defense of the people, it is not laying down his life in nonviolence. In death, because he took on every sin that has ever been committed, he was technically the single worst human of all time. That was his sacrifice. He became a monster to save humanity.

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Yes, His death was pretty violent, and as we see on the cross, the violence they were using was sinful as He prayed for their forgiveness. But wow you really do have to twist things to say that His death on the cross wasn't "laying His life down in nonviolence".

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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See, there I go. Monday morning and already breaking my personal rule about engaging with white "advocates".

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Its' not really a rule if you recognize your misstep and keep going anyway

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Good point. Rule reinstated. It reminds me of this quote from St. Isaac the Syrian:

Quote:

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"If you cannot be merciful, at least speak as though you are a sinner. If you are not a peacemaker, at least do not be a troublemaker. If you cannot be assiduous, at least in your thought be like a sluggard. If you are not victorious, do not exalt yourself over the vanquished. If you cannot close the mouth of a man who disparages his companion, at least refrain from joining him in this."

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I need to be better at this on both ends.

PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Sullys Guy said:

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PacifistAg said:

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I prefer looking to Christ to see what a shepherd does: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." But, you do you.

---

yes, lay down his life defending his sheep. Not just lay down, the shepherd would violently try to drive the wolf away; not just lay down and wait to be killed slightly before his flock was eviscerated

---

Well, the good thing is that we see what Christ actually meant as He did lay His life down. And guess what? He did it nonviolently, and even prayed for the forgiveness of those killing Him.

---

What was to be gained by violence with regards to his sacrifice? He had to die to save his sheep; not the same in the analogy mentioned above; where if the Shepherd actually dies; his sheep get killed.

---

Moving that goalpost. Like I said, the Good Shepherd is the one we are called to imitate, and He's laid His life down nonviolently. Not to mention, our enemies aren't "flesh and blood", so we do not use "flesh and blood" weapons. The lost are not our enemies, they are our mission. We fight evil, not with violence, but with the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. I know how much you hate this, but....

Quote:

---

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

---

---

Not moving the goalpost whatsoever, Jesus said a shepherd has to be prepared to die for his flock; Jesus died in defense of his flock; that doesn't mean he was advocating a shepherd lie down and die and in doing so lose his entire flock.

---

Who are we called to imitate? Goalposts get heavy after a while, don't they?

---

We're called to imitate Christ. In a situation where violence would achieve nothing; it's stupid to practice violence. This is why he rebuked Peter; not for the violence, but because it wasn't the proper venue. When violence was proper; Christ whirled the lash.

---

Christ didn't use violence against people in the Temple. Or are you arguing that Isaiah 53:9 is wrong?

Christ would do "no violence". And He rebuked Peter for multiple reasons. One of which was his participation in the cycle of violence (those who take up the sword perish by the sword).

---

What did Christ use against the people in the Temple? Threat of Violence? What is overturning tables? As a pacifist you're allowed to threaten someone with violence as long as you don't go through with it?

Isaiah is prophecy; it's not 1 to 1 accurate; you'lll notice in that same prophecy that Christ wasn't buried in a grave with the wicked; it's figurative.

And Christ specifically told his followers to make sure that they had swords with them, obviously he didn't want them all to die by the sword. You're looking into prophecy too literally.

---

Christ didn't use violence or even threaten violence against people. Here's a good paper on the subject that delves into the original text and grammar. And my understanding of Isaiah 53:9 is consistent with His teachings and actions in life.

And Christ's command about the sword had nothing to do with defense. He explains the command in the very next verse. It was solely about the fulfillment of prophecy. If it had anything to do with self-defense, He wouldn't have told them two swords is enough. In fact, His response makes it clear that even then His disciples still missed the point.

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The fact that having swords is prophesy points out the fact that having a sword to defend yourself isn't bad. That's the point of having a sword; self-defense. When Jesus rebukes Peter he doesn't say "Hey, violence is bad so don't do that" he chastizes him for getting in the way of what Christ knows he has to do.

What is over-turning a table and whirling a knotted rope? Don't tell me someone else's thoughts on the matter; tell my YOUR thoughts.

We need dump threads where staff can move all of the off topic stuff. We can have Christian pacifism thread, for instance, and just move everything there so it doesn't end up on every single other thread. Most other forums use Megathreads for stuff like this

ramblin_ag02 said:

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We need dump threads where staff can move all of the off topic stuff. We can have Christian pacifism thread, for instance, and just move everything there so it doesn't end up on every single other thread. Most other forums use Megathreads for stuff like this

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I hear what you are saying, but to be fair, this thread didn't start out as a pacifism thread. A certain poster, who is entitled to his opinion, constantly makes every thread into a Christian Pacifism thread.

This was more of a "down with the Church of Nice, up with the Church that vigorously defends itself against heresy and blasphemy".

What I mean is that any posts not related a Baptist minister saying God approves her abortion (pause while I vomit in my mouth) would be moved by staff to the other thread

Goodness. How is this comment making the thread about pacifism:

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Fewer Crusader moms. Fewer moms like this. More moms who raise their sons to be imitators of Christ.

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It wasn't me who turned it into that. I addressed the OP, and actually partially agreed with him which is rare given he's a white "advocate".