A Formula for Atheism

3,493 Views | 43 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Marco Esquandolas
PacifistAg
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AG
A Formula For Atheism
Quote:

A few years ago the pastor of an evangelical-fundamentalist church with whom I'm acquainted announced on the Sunday after Easter that he had become an atheist. He told his stunned congregation that he had been an atheist for a year and a half and that all attempts to revive his faith had failed. So on the Sunday after Easter he publicly left Christianity and moved on with his life a life with no more Easters.

A few days after his bombshell resignation I met with this now erstwhile pastor. As I listened to his story, it quickly became apparent that he had not so much lost his faith in Christianity as he had lost his credulity for fundamentalism. But sadly he had been formed in a tradition where Christianity and fundamentalism were so tightly bound together that he could not make a distinction between them.
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By misinterpreting the Enlightenment and the corresponding rise of empiricism as an existential threat to Christian faith, many frightened Christians sequestered themselves in panic rooms of certitude. Unfortunately, this kind of darkness breeds monsters.
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I've seen too many Christians lose battles they never needed to fight. Like Don Quixote they imagine harmless windmills as threatening giants, fight a needless battle, only to have the windmill-imagined-as-giant win. The culture wars have created these kind of quixotic crusades and sometimes the tragic outcome is pastors announcing their atheism on the Sunday after Easter.
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These days I have a simple mission statement: To help make Christianity possible for my grandchildren and their generation. I want my seven grandchildren (all under the age of eight) to be able to celebrate Easter for a lifetime. So if my grandchildren are to be able to embrace Easter with any kind of authentic faith when they're adults, I cannot afford to ignore their inevitable doubts or try to strong-arm them into unquestioning certitude. In our secular age that is a formula for atheism. Instead I will do my best to nurture my grandchildren in the rich soil of historic Christian faith a faith that in its healthiest forms has always been comfortable with mystery and nuance, metaphor and allegory, candid questions and honest doubt. Because in the end Christianity has suffered more casualties from faux faith than honest doubt.
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If Jesus is presented as beautiful and mysterious as we find him in the Gospels, I'm willing to trust in that beauty to win hearts. I've heard it said that no one ever became a Christian because they lost an argument. I suspect that's true. I also suspect far more people than we imagine have become converts to Christianity for the simple reason they were charmed by the beauty of Christ.
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I would much rather ground Christian faith on the beauty of Christ than on biblical literalism. Biblical literalism can be debunked by a college freshman, but the beauty of Christ can withstand every attack Nietzsche can muster. If I'm hedging my bets on the survival of Christian faith as we hurdle into a secular age, it's because the King of Hearts is still so beautiful. I'm willing to bet my grandchildren's faith on the beauty of Christ.

Rusty Aha
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Frok
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I think it's a pretty ridiculous statement to say fundamentalism causes atheism.
PacifistAg
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Frok said:

I think it's a pretty ridiculous statement to say fundamentalism causes atheism.
I don't believe he's saying that it's always the case, but that fundamentalism can easily lead to such. I grew up in that world, and my brothers and I have often talked about how it's amazing we didn't reject God completely after escaping that. Fundmentalism/literalism can have a tendency to be like a house of cards, and when you remove one card, it can all come crashing down. I even got into a discussion with my dad recently about this. He said to me that there are no contradictions or inaccuracies in the Bible, and if one is found, then it calls into question the validity of the entire book. That's what Zahnd is referring to, but it is certainly not the only "formula" that can easily lead to atheism.

Personally, I think the bigger issue isn't fundamentalism, but lukewarm "cultural" Christianity where we proclaim Him with our lips, but deny Him with our actions.

Frok
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But think about what is being said here. Believing the bible is a formula for atheism. Really?

PacifistAg
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Frok said:

But think about what is being said here. Believing the bible is a formula for atheism. Really?
He didn't say that believing the Bible is a formula for atheism. He is talking about the path that a certain interpretation of the Bible can lead down. The author of that piece absolutely believes the Bible, and would urge all others to do the same. It's a particular interpretation that he's referring to.

Heck, I can't tell you how many people I have had tell me, typically Calvinists, that my interpretation of the Bible leads me down that path. The only difference is Zahnd is talking about a fundamentalist/literalist interpretation. Perhaps the title of his piece isn't the best, but it was written after talking to a fundamentalist pastor who rejected the faith altogether and ended at atheism.
Frok
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My issue is he over-simplifies the people he is talking about to drive home a point. Now all of a sudden people like me are driving people away from Christ because we interpret the bible different than him.
PacifistAg
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Frok said:

My issue is he over-simplifies the people he is talking about to drive home a point. Now all of a sudden people like me are driving people away from Christ because we interpret the bible different than him.
That's not what he's saying at all. He's simply talking about the dangers of a method of interpretation. It's no different than those who talk of the dangers of an interpretation method that may include LGBT-affirmation, or an interpretation method that may be based on a dismissal of the OT. In this case, he's talking about the dangers of a literalist interpretation.
kurt vonnegut
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I think I get what he's saying. If you structure your belief to create a false dichotomy between the Bible either being 100% literal truth interpreted in a fundamentalist way and atheism, then someone may be inclined to abandon Christianity altogether based on any perceived errancy in the Bible.

ie. Lets say someone believes that the Bible is 100% literal truth and that Genesis is meant to be a historical document. If that person later comes to the conclusion that the Earth is more than 10k years old, will they adopt a more 'liberal' idea of what the Bible is? Or will they say that one error proves the whole thing is false.

I don't know if it actually works that way. For every fundamentalist ----> atheist transaction, I suspect there are far more fundamentalist ------> less fundamentalist transactions. . . but, I don't know.
PacifistAg
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Yes, thank you for that post. It explains it far better than I have.
kurt vonnegut
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PacifistAg
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Quote:

I don't know if it actually works that way. For every fundamentalist ----> atheist transaction, I suspect there are far more fundamentalist ------> less fundamentalist transactions. . . but, I don't know.
Having grown up in that world, I would say that from my experience, most who leave fundamentalism and that way of understanding Scripture do not go to atheism, but simply a more palatable understanding of Scripture.
Frok
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PacifistAg said:

Yes, thank you for that post. It explains it far better than I have.


Notice it is the atheist that agrees with you
PacifistAg
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Frok said:

PacifistAg said:

Yes, thank you for that post. It explains it far better than I have.


Notice it is the atheist that agrees with you
Yes. Atheists can be right on occasion as well.
kurt vonnegut
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Frok said:

PacifistAg said:

Yes, thank you for that post. It explains it far better than I have.

Notice it is the atheist that agrees with you
Man . . . you say that like I'm some moral leper.

Also, I didn't agree, I just put the point in different words.
Frok
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kurt vonnegut said:

Frok said:

PacifistAg said:

Yes, thank you for that post. It explains it far better than I have.

Notice it is the atheist that agrees with you
Man . . . you say that like I'm some moral leper.

Also, I didn't agree, I just put the point in different words.


Winky face man. Not being serious. I generally like your posts on this board.
kurt vonnegut
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Frok said:

kurt vonnegut said:

Frok said:

PacifistAg said:

Yes, thank you for that post. It explains it far better than I have.

Notice it is the atheist that agrees with you
Man . . . you say that like I'm some moral leper.

Also, I didn't agree, I just put the point in different words.

Winky face man. Not being serious. I generally like your posts on this board.


Whatever. I'm so oppressed here. . . .
PacifistAg
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Frok, one last thing I'd like to add. My intent was certainly not to offend, but it appears to have done so. For that, I am sorry. I failed to take into consideration how this would make others react contrary to how I reacted when I read it. That was short-sighted on my part. If you prefer, I can remove the OP and let the thread die.
Frok
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Dude don't apologize, I'm not offended. I'm just stubborn and like to argue. If you worry about offending me then it won't be any fun.

I'll try not to get my jollies rankled and read the content for what it is
PacifistAg
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I'm sorry for apologizing.
swimmerbabe11
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I do think it is a strange ground to touch when the answer is "adopt more 'liberal' policies" If you find something in the Bible a hard pill to swallow. Where do you draw the line? I think that is how we have a lot of antinomianism and anything goes churches in the USA today. "I dont like this, so I'll twist the scripture to fit the viewpoint I prefer"

What's the best way not to fall off the horse on either side?
FlyFish95
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The Bible never says the earth is 10,000 years okd
Martin Q. Blank
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Gig 1995 said:

The Bible never says the earth is 10,000 years okd
Correct. It only says it was created in 6 days.
Win At Life
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Gig 1995 said:

The Bible never says the earth is 10,000 years okd
Correct. It only says it was created in 6 days.


The birth ages from Adam to Abraham are specified in exact detail. I've added them up myself. According to scripture, Abraham was born exactly 1948 years after Adam. Add the years specified in Egypt, the judges and Kings until they mention another national king we have dated in archeology. The math points to Adam living approximately 4000 BC.
kurt vonnegut
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Gig 1995 said:

The Bible never says the earth is 10,000 years okd


Most people would say that a literal interpretation of Genesis does not give an explicit age to the planet, but that it does not support a 4.5 billion year old Earth. That's all I meant.
Aggrad08
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Remind me again why accepting extremely well established science is "liberal".

There are a whole lot of Catholics out there that are pretty conservative and don't cling to the literal flood or creation account.and conservative protestants for that matter.
Woody2006
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Win At Life said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Gig 1995 said:

The Bible never says the earth is 10,000 years okd
Correct. It only says it was created in 6 days.


The birth ages from Adam to Abraham are specified in exact detail. I've added them up myself. According to scripture, Abraham was born exactly 1948 years after Adam. Add the years specified in Egypt, the judges and Kings until they mention another national king we have dated in archeology. The math points to Adam living approximately 4000 BC.

You really believe Methuselah lived almost a sixth of human history?
ramblin_ag02
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Taking those timelines literally gets you in a lot of trouble. We all know the sciences of astronomy, biology, geology, and physics contradict this. So no need to recap that.

Instead we can just look at archaeology and anthropology. Going off the 4000 BC timeline for Adam, then the flood happened around 2400 BC.



Now we have ancient Sumerian texts that date to before 3000 BC. These aren't carbon dated or anything else. They are dated by historical context. Because the ancient Sumerian, Babylonian, and Assyrian civilizations clearly existed both before and after 2400 BC, the supposed date of the flood.



You can say that the dating of these civilizations are wildly off, but then none of ancient history makes any sense. Because we know that one civilization was dominant, then was displaced, then was displaced, and on and on. For the Genesis timeline to be correct, all of the ancient civilizations would have to be post 2400 BC, and probably several hundred years later since the Earth was still be repopulated at that point. Known human history clearly contradicts this
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FlyFish95
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Gig 1995 said:

The Bible never says the earth is 10,000 years okd
Correct. It only says it was created in 6 days.

There's been a lot of work done on the translation. Interesting stuff. It appears in fact, that's not what's being indicated.
swimmerbabe11
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Aggrad08 said:

Remind me again why accepting extremely well established science is "liberal".

There are a whole lot of Catholics out there that are pretty conservative and don't cling to the literal flood or creation account.and conservative protestants for that matter.


My post was geared more towards things like womens ordination than creation theology.
Marco Esquandolas
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Frok said:

I think it's a pretty ridiculous statement to say fundamentalism causes atheism.

I'm Exhibit A, ask me ask me ask me
Rocag
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I don't think for most people who convert from fundamentalist forms of Christianity to atheism is that they believe Christianity or the Bible are either 100% true or 100% false. It's more that when religious authorities make claims that are fairly easy to disprove people start questioning all of the things they have been taught. That seed of doubt is a pretty powerful thing.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

I don't think for most people who convert from fundamentalist forms of Christianity to atheism is that they believe Christianity or the Bible are either 100% true or 100% false. It's more that when religious authorities make claims that are fairly easy to disprove people start questioning all of the things they have been taught. That seed of doubt is a pretty powerful thing.
I'd say this is pretty spot on. For a young person, trusting a fundamentalist pastor and Ken Ham is no different than trusting their physics teacher and Edwin Hubble. Both are just assertive authority figures. When people get older and more educated it's easier to see that fundamentalism doesn't match up with the real world. So once people no longer trust their religious education things tend to get interesting.

One possible offshoot of that is just jettisoning the entire thing and becoming atheist. Many other people find other religious authority figures or institutions. It drives others into serious reflection and study, and others become much more liberal with their religious beliefs.
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Marco Esquandolas
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at this point, about the only things I've salvaged from my childhood fundamentalist indoctrination are (a) Christian ethics (as originally espoused by Jesus) are mostly still pretty good (b) attitude of distrust towards ecclesial religious hierarchies.

That's really it. Just about everything else had to be dumped in the garbage: how you read and understand the Bible, how you apply it to your life, how you go about doing church, how you treat other people, just every single thing. At some point it was just embarrassing to even consider trying to stay in that world and it set me on the path of "not sure where I'm going but I sure as sh*t can't stay here."
Tysonb@m
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I know we've sparred in the past Marco and your feelings are completely reasonable. It gets much better. It makes your head spin when your entire worldview crumbles before you but it's for the better. All the good you see in religion existed before religion and can exist without religion. Religion is just masquerading as good. The shallow beliefs of the religious don't matter. You're an awesome dude with or without religion.
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