The problem with freedom and free-will

1,489 Views | 16 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by dds08
dds08
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AG
Given the fact that "evil" exists, any action can be justified.

As fake, untrue, as evil is; it exists.

Of course good exists, but that's a completely different lesson.
JTatter88
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A society can only handle freedom so long as it is virtuous, our forefathers knew this.

We have mistaken many of the fruits of virtuous society; free market, civil liberties, free exercise of religion, as the cause itself
PacifistAg
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AG
JTatter88 said:

A society can only handle freedom so long as it is virtuous, our forefathers knew this.

We have mistaken many of the fruits of virtuous society; free market, civil liberties, free exercise of religion, as the cause itself
America has never been a virtuous society. I also have a hard time understanding how our 'forefathers' were virtuous, if that's what you're implying.
JTatter88
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PacifistAg said:

JTatter88 said:

A society can only handle freedom so long as it is virtuous, our forefathers knew this.

We have mistaken many of the fruits of virtuous society; free market, civil liberties, free exercise of religion, as the cause itself
America has never been a virtuous society. I also have a hard time understanding how our 'forefathers' were virtuous, if that's what you're implying.


I disagree, our country has flaws as it's a nation of humans, but still virtuous.
PacifistAg
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AG
JTatter88 said:

PacifistAg said:

JTatter88 said:

A society can only handle freedom so long as it is virtuous, our forefathers knew this.

We have mistaken many of the fruits of virtuous society; free market, civil liberties, free exercise of religion, as the cause itself
America has never been a virtuous society. I also have a hard time understanding how our 'forefathers' were virtuous, if that's what you're implying.


I disagree, our country has flaws as it's a nation of humans, but still virtuous.
Well, I would disagree. When was our nation virtuous? When we were committing genocide? Enslaving people? Oppressing minorities and women? Rounding up citizens to put them in internment camps? Or was it after we legalized abortion?

No, we aren't a virtuous nation. Yes, we are a flawed state, as all inherently violent states are, made up of flawed humans.
JTatter88
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PacifistAg said:

JTatter88 said:

PacifistAg said:

JTatter88 said:

A society can only handle freedom so long as it is virtuous, our forefathers knew this.

We have mistaken many of the fruits of virtuous society; free market, civil liberties, free exercise of religion, as the cause itself
America has never been a virtuous society. I also have a hard time understanding how our 'forefathers' were virtuous, if that's what you're implying.


I disagree, our country has flaws as it's a nation of humans, but still virtuous.
Well, I would disagree. When was our nation virtuous? When we were committing genocide? Enslaving people? Oppressing minorities and women? Rounding up citizens to put them in internment camps? Or was it after we legalized abortion?

No, we aren't a virtuous nation. Yes, we are a flawed state, as all inherently violent states are, made up of flawed humans.


Like man, we are virtuous and sinful at the same time. When we sacrificed our lives for others freedom, when we sacrificed our money for the comfort of others. When we opened up our borders to help those fleeing tyranny and oppression who brought zero benefit to us.
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

When we opened up our borders to help those fleeing tyranny and oppression who brought zero benefit to us.
Was this when we turned away a ship full of Jewish refugees and sent them back to their death? Or are we talking more recently about the insane desire to build an ineffective wall to keep people out?
JTatter88
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PacifistAg said:


Quote:

When we opened up our borders to help those fleeing tyranny and oppression who brought zero benefit to us.
Was this when we turned away a ship full of Jewish refugees and sent them back to their death? Or are we talking more recently about the insane desire to build an ineffective wall to keep people out?


We've granted asylum to over 30,000 people per year since the year 2000; and given them aid to re establish them self in this country. We give billions and billions of dollars per year to ease the suffering of poorer nations.

As I mentioned, you would expect the one due to our fallen nature, but not the other.

dds08
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AG
Hey you two, pacifist/Jtat, please don't hijack my thread.

I want more than two opinions to my OP.

1. Go to R&P
2. Click on "new topic"
3. Profit! (continue arguing on new thread.)
PacifistAg
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AG
Okay, so what is it you're actually wanting to discuss with this thread?
dds08
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PacifistAg said:

Okay, so what is it you're actually wanting to discuss with this thread?
I don't want the OP to just get discussed in the context to our country (or any particular state) and it's politics/history.
ramblin_ag02
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dds08 said:

Given the fact that "evil" exists, any action can be justified.

As fake, untrue, as evil is; it exists.

Of course good exists, but that's a completely different lesson.


I think we're going to need you to show your work here. I have no idea what you're talking about
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PacifistAg
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AG
dds08 said:

PacifistAg said:

Okay, so what is it you're actually wanting to discuss with this thread?
I don't want the OP to just get discussed in the context to our country (or any particular state) and it's politics/history.

As ramblin pointed out, it's hard to even know what you're talking about. And how would we know that's a parameter when you set no parameters in your vague OP.
dds08
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AG
When it comes to human behavior, it's getting harder and harder to say anything is right or wrong because right and wrong are subjective (plus free will [you can be as good/bad as you want to be because of free will]).

Wrong is becoming more and more socially acceptable/justified that righteousness is becoming harder to even distinguish, let alone try in human courts. (The social fabric of abundant life, itself, is getting shredded)

Some want to pursue honesty and integrity. Some want to be the up and coming person who is next in line for the "Lucifer" award.

With freedom, who is to say it's wrong to massacre innocent people or put them in camps.
dds08
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The thread was originally left vague because I wanted to know how "Intelligent" minded people would respond, or "people" minded people would respond, or "rules/order/systems" people would respond or "action" oriented people would respond (risk takers).
DirtDiver
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Quote:

When it comes to human behavior, it's getting harder and harder to say anything is right or wrong because right and wrong are subjective (plus free will [you can be as good/bad as you want to be because of free will]).

Wrong is becoming more and more socially acceptable/justified that righteousness is becoming harder to even distinguish, let alone try in human courts. (The social fabric of abundant life, itself, is getting shredded)

Some want to pursue honesty and integrity. Some want to be the up and coming person who is next in line for the "Lucifer" award.



  • If evil and good exist then there's a standard for differentiating the two.
  • Freedom to do evil and good does not change the standard.
  • Is there an objective standard for good and evil?


Quote:

With freedom, who is to say it's wrong to massacre innocent people or put them in camps.

  • Even though we have freedom, it's wrong to massacre innocent people or put them in camps because there's an absolute moral standard given by God that human life is valuable and that murdering the innocent is violating the moral standard.
  • If there is no God, then human life is an accident that has zero objective value, and there are no absolute moral standards. A person is not able to justify why it would or wouldn't be wrong because 'wrong' would be mere speculation.
dds08
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God is okay with one being as evil as one wants to be. Satan is the evidence.


Yes, there are consequences for bad behavior but there are also consequences for good behavior.


One could view jails and prisons as impeding one's freedom to do evil.


Perhaps a good counter-argument could center around a need for "order" in society.


Freedom-Consequences, Freedom-Consequences. Order!

I'd be willing to bet some people's ambition in life is to cause as much mayhem as possible! They aren't happy unless they are getting the most money they can (greed), or pursuing hubris to the maximum.


dds08
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AG
Perhaps it would help if I stated in my OP that my line of thinking was from a more secular point of view.
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