Why did man fall?

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Do Christians generally believe God's creation was perfect (I.e. good by God's standard) before the fall of man? If so, what do Christians believe induced the fall of man?
PacifistAg
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Quote:

If so, what do Christians believe induced the fall of man?
Your mom.

But in all seriousness, I believe it was the same as we see in the account of the temptation of Christ. I believe man was tempted by Satan and succumbed to that temptation.
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PacifistAg said:


Quote:

If so, what do Christians believe induced the fall of man?
Your mom.



DUDE! That was brutal. I thought you were a pacifist.

Wasn't Satan part of the creation too? What caused his fall then? I guess I'm trying to figure out where and why the first ***** in the armor came from.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

Wasn't Satan part of the creation too? What caused his fall then?
That's a good question. Did the angels exist prior to the creation of the universe? It's something I haven't really looked into. I would say, as a believer in free will, that the ability to "fall" is in all things God creates. Love is not possible if His created agents lack the ability to freely choose to reject Him.
Frok
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I think this verse refers to the fall of Satan. It looks like he was created AFTER creation but I'm not sure.

Quote:

You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.c
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,

Ezekiel 28:13-16




I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.

diehard03
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Quote:

what do Christians believe induced the fall of man

The presence of the Tree in the garden in the first place.
rak1693
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Frok said:

I think this verse refers to the fall of Satan. It looks like he was created AFTER creation but I'm not sure.

Quote:

You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.c
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,

Ezekiel 28:13-16




I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.


He's exactly right. Satan had his own "fall" after the Garden. He wanted to be like God and sit on his own thrown above God. Isaiah 14:12-15 also talks about the fall of Satan.
gordo97
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

what do Christians believe induced the fall of man

The presence of the Tree in the garden in the first place.


Why was it a tree with tasty fruit anyway??? I bet if it was something like a brussel sprouts bush, we wouldnt be in this mess now.
kurt vonnegut
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Frok said:

I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.

Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?
kurt vonnegut
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gordo97 said:

diehard03 said:

Why was it a tree with tasty fruit anyway??? I bet if it was something like a brussel sprouts bush, we wouldnt be in this mess now.


. . . .and brussel sprouts are delicious.
Frok
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kurt vonnegut said:

Frok said:

I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.

Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?


I don't know. Just stating my observations.
Win At Life
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PacifistAg
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kurt vonnegut said:

Frok said:

I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.

Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?

I would say it's because they must exist for truly free will to exist. Or at least the potential to go against God's intended order must exist if we are to be able to love God. In order to love, we must be free to not love. In order to be humble and selfless, we must be free to be prideful and self-centered.
kurt vonnegut
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PacifistAg said:



I would say it's because they must exist for truly free will to exist. Or at least the potential to go against God's intended order must exist if we are to be able to love God. In order to love, we must be free to not love. In order to be humble and selfless, we must be free to be prideful and self-centered.

Does that original capacity to go against God make 'the fall' something inevitable?
chuckd
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kurt vonnegut said:

Frok said:

I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.

Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?
It was not. Man was created upright and righteous. However, he is mutable and subject to change. Sin originated in man, not God.
Aggrad08
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So then either sin exists in heaven or there is no free will
rak1693
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kurt vonnegut said:

Frok said:

I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.

Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?
Ezekiel 28:17: "Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor."

It was exactly pride. Pride wasn't necessarily part of the original creation. It was the Fall that brought pride and greed into the world. Lucifer was one of the original cherubim so he was considered one of God's holy beings.
kurt vonnegut
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chuckd said:


It was not. Man was created upright and righteous. However, he is mutable and subject to change. Sin originated in man, not God.

If we are mutable and subject to change, was our change inevitable?
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I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
diehard03
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I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.

I am not a free will guy, so my interpretation is that it was "perfect" from the standpoint of God's perfect plan from soup to nuts. God allowed the "choice" to occur by planting the tree, knowing full well the choice we would make, and knowing full well that the Christ would be sent as the Redeemer.

I see it as the narrative is the important part, not necessarily why this narrative needed to happen (my answer is that it was never needed...it's just the one God chose)
Zobel
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Human beings were not created perfect. Many of the fathers of the Church write that we were to kind of grow into perfection by union with God.
rak1693
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dargscisyhp said:

I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
Great question but it's not exactly easy to answer. Before I attempt to answer that, I want to first state that God knew they were going to sin from the very beginning. God is omniscient or "all knowing." That's the biggest thing to keep in mind here. From an article I once read that I believe states it well: "God's purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does." I know that probably doesn't completely answer your question so I'll try to explain the rest. Satan was not created "perfect", Lucifer was. Lucifer was a cherub and actually present at the Garden of Eden but was not the serpent. The "serpent" was essentially Satan. The Bible doesn't specifically state when or how Satan was created but we know that he was evil in the Garden. Once Adam and Ever were cast out, cherubim (which Lucifer was) guarded the Garden to prevent Adam and Eve from re-entering. When was Satan created? We don't really know. Genesis 1:2 states that "The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." "Water" in this context does not actually mean literal water. This "water" represents chaos. There was chaos since the beginning. Why Satan was created is a little easier to understand. "Wrath and mercy display the riches of God's glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions- fall, election, redemption, atonement- serve the purpose of glorifying God." God showed his mercy on Adam and Eve by not killing them on the spot ("The wages of sin is death"). God's justice and wrath were on display when he flooded the earth and wiped out everything. His mercy was on display, however, when he saved Noah's family and a few animals. Satan was essentially created so that God could show us His glory. His glory is shown each time we fall further into sin and yet He still loves us all. You had a great question and I hope my answer helps. There are a bunch of things we don't know and never will but we can at least try to understand His being.
rak1693
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k2aggie07 said:

Human beings were not created perfect. Many of the fathers of the Church write that we were to kind of grow into perfection by union with God.
Just because we don't consider ourselves "perfect" who's to say that we aren't? Why would a perfect, omnipotent being create something imperfect? That wouldn't be in His being. And how can an imperfect being call something imperfect? In other words, we are perfect in God's eyes even though we consider ourselves damnable wretches because we surely can't define the word "perfect." This is actually the basis for an Apologetics argument.
Zobel
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I'll give you a hint. Look up the word used for perfect in Matthe 5:48 by Christ and what it means. This is why we are not perfect.
ramblin_ag02
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I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
I think you should be a little more descriptive with your definition of perfection. To me, God exemplifies perfect love. Part of that is loving men who may or may not love Him back. After all, Jesus even tells us to love those who hate us, because everyone loves those who love them. But we are to be better than that.

So for God to exemplify the greatest love He must create beings that don't love Him. He could make them without the potential to love Him, but that would hardly be a loving thing to do. So He creates beings with agency, and lets them decide to either love him or not.

The world is not perfect, because we don't always make the best choices with the agency we are given. However, the world is perfectly established to continually give every single person agency.
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ramblin_ag02
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So then either sin exists in heaven or there is no free will
This thread sure got tangled. I would say free will does not exist in heaven after a fashion. It's an earthly phenomenon. The whole point of earthly existence. If one chooses to love God, become reborn by the Spirit, and continually grows to be more Christ-like, then at some point that person will become the most perfect version of themselves. That person will always do the most perfect thing in every circumstance. There will not be the temptation between perfect action and selfish action. We will be like Jesus in that way, always doing the best thing.
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gordo97
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I would think that being in full presence of God would take away your free will or ability to sin because His glory and majesty would be your only focus but I guess Adam and Eve kinda ruined that train of thought
rak1693
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k2aggie07 said:

I'll give you a hint. Look up the word used for perfect in Matthe 5:48 by Christ and what it means. This is why we are not perfect.
That verse applies to man being "perfect" as mature or complete. So when you originally said man was made imperfect, I agree if you're referring to the Matthew 5 version. But all you said was perfect. You din't say "mature" or "complete." We were made a literal "perfect" being but not the "complete" or "mature" being. I was purely referring to the literal perfect meaning when I said that God, a perfect God, would not create anything imperfect. For that is not in his nature. Same word, two very different meanings.
DirtDiver
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Quote:

I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
Many would say that the greatest moral ethic is love. Love demands freedom to exist. Freedom produces the possibility to sin.

Taste, hunger, beauty, sex, desires, are all good things that God created for us. These things also cause great trouble when used outside of his design. I've heard one person describe sin before as taking a good God given hunger and using that hunger to commit acts contrary to His desires/design.

I think it boils down to the uniqueness of God to make free creatures.
Aggrad08
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ramblin_ag02 said:

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So then either sin exists in heaven or there is no free will
This thread sure got tangled. I would say free will does not exist in heaven after a fashion. It's an earthly phenomenon. The whole point of earthly existence. If one chooses to love God, become reborn by the Spirit, and continually grows to be more Christ-like, then at some point that person will become the most perfect version of themselves. That person will always do the most perfect thing in every circumstance. There will not be the temptation between perfect action and selfish action. We will be like Jesus in that way, always doing the best thing.
if that's possible he probably should have created us that way in the first place
ramblin_ag02
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Except in the case of heaven you have people who've not only chosen to live that way but actively sacrificed to be that way. So you're already working with a select population
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rak1693
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Aggrad08 said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

So then either sin exists in heaven or there is no free will
This thread sure got tangled. I would say free will does not exist in heaven after a fashion. It's an earthly phenomenon. The whole point of earthly existence. If one chooses to love God, become reborn by the Spirit, and continually grows to be more Christ-like, then at some point that person will become the most perfect version of themselves. That person will always do the most perfect thing in every circumstance. There will not be the temptation between perfect action and selfish action. We will be like Jesus in that way, always doing the best thing.
if that's possible he probably should have created us that way in the first place
God's purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God's glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions- fall, election, redemption, atonement- serve the purpose of glorifying God. God desires a relationship with us through Christ. Without sin, there is no need for Christ thus no true relationship with God. The Trinity has always been and will always be.
Zobel
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There is no other word translated for perfect in the Holy Scriptures. There is no other scriptural sense of the word. Any disparate meaning exists only in a etymological error or in your own judgment.

For reference, the Latin word by which we receive our word perfect means completed, it is very much the same as teleios.

How can something that is incomplete or not yet mature be perfect? Something that is lacking in any way can not be said to be perfect.
ramblin_ag02
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Without sin, there is no need for Christ thus no true relationship with God. The Trinity has always been and will always be.


I have an issue with this statement. Christ as God and a member of the Trinity does not have an existence that is contingent on anything, much less contingent on sin. God, and therefore Christ, is the only necessarily existent existence. He exists because He is, not because there is some particular reason for His existence.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Aggrad08
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Except in the case of heaven you have people who've not only chosen to live that way but actively sacrificed to be that way. So you're already working with a select population


And? It's nothing for a creator god to limit creation to these types of people.
 
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