Do Christians generally believe God's creation was perfect (I.e. good by God's standard) before the fall of man? If so, what do Christians believe induced the fall of man?
Your mom.Quote:
If so, what do Christians believe induced the fall of man?
PacifistAg said:Your mom.Quote:
If so, what do Christians believe induced the fall of man?
That's a good question. Did the angels exist prior to the creation of the universe? It's something I haven't really looked into. I would say, as a believer in free will, that the ability to "fall" is in all things God creates. Love is not possible if His created agents lack the ability to freely choose to reject Him.Quote:
Wasn't Satan part of the creation too? What caused his fall then?
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You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.c
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
Ezekiel 28:13-16
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what do Christians believe induced the fall of man
He's exactly right. Satan had his own "fall" after the Garden. He wanted to be like God and sit on his own thrown above God. Isaiah 14:12-15 also talks about the fall of Satan.Frok said:
I think this verse refers to the fall of Satan. It looks like he was created AFTER creation but I'm not sure.Quote:
You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.c
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
Ezekiel 28:13-16
I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.
diehard03 said:Quote:
what do Christians believe induced the fall of man
The presence of the Tree in the garden in the first place.
Frok said:
I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.
gordo97 said:diehard03 said:
Why was it a tree with tasty fruit anyway??? I bet if it was something like a brussel sprouts bush, we wouldnt be in this mess now.
kurt vonnegut said:Frok said:
I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.
Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?
kurt vonnegut said:Frok said:
I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.
Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?
PacifistAg said:
I would say it's because they must exist for truly free will to exist. Or at least the potential to go against God's intended order must exist if we are to be able to love God. In order to love, we must be free to not love. In order to be humble and selfless, we must be free to be prideful and self-centered.
It was not. Man was created upright and righteous. However, he is mutable and subject to change. Sin originated in man, not God.kurt vonnegut said:Frok said:
I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.
Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?
Ezekiel 28:17: "Your heart was proud because of your beauty;kurt vonnegut said:Frok said:
I would say PRIDE and IGNORANCE caused the fall.
Why was pride and ignorance a part of the original creation?
chuckd said:
It was not. Man was created upright and righteous. However, he is mutable and subject to change. Sin originated in man, not God.
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I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
Great question but it's not exactly easy to answer. Before I attempt to answer that, I want to first state that God knew they were going to sin from the very beginning. God is omniscient or "all knowing." That's the biggest thing to keep in mind here. From an article I once read that I believe states it well: "God's purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does." I know that probably doesn't completely answer your question so I'll try to explain the rest. Satan was not created "perfect", Lucifer was. Lucifer was a cherub and actually present at the Garden of Eden but was not the serpent. The "serpent" was essentially Satan. The Bible doesn't specifically state when or how Satan was created but we know that he was evil in the Garden. Once Adam and Ever were cast out, cherubim (which Lucifer was) guarded the Garden to prevent Adam and Eve from re-entering. When was Satan created? We don't really know. Genesis 1:2 states that "The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." "Water" in this context does not actually mean literal water. This "water" represents chaos. There was chaos since the beginning. Why Satan was created is a little easier to understand. "Wrath and mercy display the riches of God's glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions- fall, election, redemption, atonement- serve the purpose of glorifying God." God showed his mercy on Adam and Eve by not killing them on the spot ("The wages of sin is death"). God's justice and wrath were on display when he flooded the earth and wiped out everything. His mercy was on display, however, when he saved Noah's family and a few animals. Satan was essentially created so that God could show us His glory. His glory is shown each time we fall further into sin and yet He still loves us all. You had a great question and I hope my answer helps. There are a bunch of things we don't know and never will but we can at least try to understand His being.dargscisyhp said:
I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
Just because we don't consider ourselves "perfect" who's to say that we aren't? Why would a perfect, omnipotent being create something imperfect? That wouldn't be in His being. And how can an imperfect being call something imperfect? In other words, we are perfect in God's eyes even though we consider ourselves damnable wretches because we surely can't define the word "perfect." This is actually the basis for an Apologetics argument.k2aggie07 said:
Human beings were not created perfect. Many of the fathers of the Church write that we were to kind of grow into perfection by union with God.
I think you should be a little more descriptive with your definition of perfection. To me, God exemplifies perfect love. Part of that is loving men who may or may not love Him back. After all, Jesus even tells us to love those who hate us, because everyone loves those who love them. But we are to be better than that.Quote:
I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
This thread sure got tangled. I would say free will does not exist in heaven after a fashion. It's an earthly phenomenon. The whole point of earthly existence. If one chooses to love God, become reborn by the Spirit, and continually grows to be more Christ-like, then at some point that person will become the most perfect version of themselves. That person will always do the most perfect thing in every circumstance. There will not be the temptation between perfect action and selfish action. We will be like Jesus in that way, always doing the best thing.Quote:
So then either sin exists in heaven or there is no free will
That verse applies to man being "perfect" as mature or complete. So when you originally said man was made imperfect, I agree if you're referring to the Matthew 5 version. But all you said was perfect. You din't say "mature" or "complete." We were made a literal "perfect" being but not the "complete" or "mature" being. I was purely referring to the literal perfect meaning when I said that God, a perfect God, would not create anything imperfect. For that is not in his nature. Same word, two very different meanings.k2aggie07 said:
I'll give you a hint. Look up the word used for perfect in Matthe 5:48 by Christ and what it means. This is why we are not perfect.
Many would say that the greatest moral ethic is love. Love demands freedom to exist. Freedom produces the possibility to sin.Quote:
I guess what I have a hard time seeing is how something that was created perfect can fall from perfection without some outside influence. If the entirety of creation, including mankind and satan, we're perfect then what was the influence? If man or Satan were created perfect, why did they choose to sin? To me this seems like a contradiction.
if that's possible he probably should have created us that way in the first placeramblin_ag02 said:This thread sure got tangled. I would say free will does not exist in heaven after a fashion. It's an earthly phenomenon. The whole point of earthly existence. If one chooses to love God, become reborn by the Spirit, and continually grows to be more Christ-like, then at some point that person will become the most perfect version of themselves. That person will always do the most perfect thing in every circumstance. There will not be the temptation between perfect action and selfish action. We will be like Jesus in that way, always doing the best thing.Quote:
So then either sin exists in heaven or there is no free will
God's purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God's glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions- fall, election, redemption, atonement- serve the purpose of glorifying God. God desires a relationship with us through Christ. Without sin, there is no need for Christ thus no true relationship with God. The Trinity has always been and will always be.Aggrad08 said:if that's possible he probably should have created us that way in the first placeramblin_ag02 said:This thread sure got tangled. I would say free will does not exist in heaven after a fashion. It's an earthly phenomenon. The whole point of earthly existence. If one chooses to love God, become reborn by the Spirit, and continually grows to be more Christ-like, then at some point that person will become the most perfect version of themselves. That person will always do the most perfect thing in every circumstance. There will not be the temptation between perfect action and selfish action. We will be like Jesus in that way, always doing the best thing.Quote:
So then either sin exists in heaven or there is no free will
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Without sin, there is no need for Christ thus no true relationship with God. The Trinity has always been and will always be.
ramblin_ag02 said:
Except in the case of heaven you have people who've not only chosen to live that way but actively sacrificed to be that way. So you're already working with a select population