ramblin_ag02 said:

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I agree with you but I am not God and He can do what he wants. This is the same beef I have with the Lordship Salvation guys. It seems as if they can determine who is hell bound. Maybe I am not "elect" and am therefore incapable of that power.

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Ha! I feel the exact same way about Calvinists

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It is fascinating since they agree with me that God is sovereign. And not man.

Doc, what do you think "call upon the name of the Lord" means? Simply saying "Lord Lord" can't be it right (Matthew 7:21).

You are correct and I would say if you truly trust on Jesus for the forgiveness of sins then you are saved.

I just do not understand this fascination of declaring people are going to Hell. Especially if it as they believe a place of ETERNAL torture. Much worse than what Hitler or Stalin did.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I just do not understand this fascination of declaring people are going to Hell. Especially if it as they believe a place of ETERNAL torture. Much worse than what Hitler or Stalin did.

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I don't get the fascination with hell in general. According to many Christians, the vast majority of people who ever lived will die and be tortured for eternity. To echo the sentiment above, who wants to be associated with a God who does that?

Calvinism is infinitely worse to me. At least with free will you have a chance to win the historical birth lottery and be born into a country and time period where you can voluntarily chose to be a Christian. Calvin's God doesn't even give you that. He creates you defective, refuses to fix you, and then tortures you as punishment. Well, except for the arbitrary handful He decides to fix and bestow eternal happiness anyway.

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Agree. I do not want anyone to go to "hell" and I especially would not be so cavalier about it like Calvinists seem to be. Calvin basically took Augustine's pagan influences views of hell and put them on steroids. And of course, Origen and others had completely different ideas.

Ok, but it doesn't say truly trust. It says call upon the name of the Lord. We have a promise here, how do we understand that promise? If calling upon the name of the Lord is not literal (and it can't be, because of Christ Jesus words in Matthew 7) what does it mean?

Former Pres. Jimmy Carter sends out some very mixed messages on things that are important to Christians: abortion and support for Israel to name just two.

One thing is for sure, his political party has changed so much it's hard to keep up. His party, today, is hostile to the Christian Faith.

Cool. I am as pro life as they come but I do not want anybody suffering eternal torment so I will pray and hope for mercy.

Matthew 7 is a pretty broad and meaty subject. I would comment that we are encouraged to live lives pleasing to God. I personally am not convinced that means people who try and fail are doomed to "Hell".

"Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father in the heavens." Matthew 7:21

So, clearly, calling on the name of the Lord does not merely mean saying Lord, Lord. Or salvation and entering the kingdom of heaven are not synonymous, I suppose.

Nothing difficult to decipher there. We need to then turn our attention to what "calling upon the name of the Lord" actually means.

I'll give you a hint. In the Old Testament it is almost exclusively associated with worship, specifically sacrifice.

And for what it's worth Joel 2:32 is extending the promise to Gentiles, which is exactly how St Paul is using it, and how St James understands the gentile question at the first council of Jerusalem. So let's not extend this verse beyond its scope.

Makes sense.

And curious to hear your interpretation of Joel 2:32 as it starts off with us calling on the Lord and the Lord saving us and then talks about Himcalling on us,

Joel 2 begins with a warning, a declaration of the Day of the Lord coming. It concludes with a call to repentance -

"Yet even now," declares the LORD,
"Return to Me with all your heart,
And with fasting, weeping and mourning;

And rend your heart and not your garments."
Now return to the LORD your God,
For He is gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness
And relenting of evil

Then it says, then the Lord will be zealous for his people.

Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God,
And there is no other;
And My people will never be put to shame.

Finally "after this" it says He will pour out the spirit on all mankind, men and women - and so whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. In that context whoever seems to mean gentile or Jew, male or female, etc.

Thanks

But the whole thing I was getting at. "Calling upon the name of the Lord" is a shorthand way of saying worship. We see time and again where men (eg see Abram - Abraham) call upon the name of the Lord at an altar. Worship in the OT is always sacrificial. And so it is in the NT. The prophets all talk about the Messiah coming and fixing everything, and He does, and He does by sacrificing Himself. And this is the only pure and true worship, the only perfect sacrifice, so when we participate in this sacrifice (par excellence in the Eucharist) we are "worshipping in spirit and in truth" with ourselves as our sacrifice, "living sacrifices" as St Paul says, offered to God through and with the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. We are joined to Him, He offers Himself, and so we offer ourselves with Him. We die with Him, are sacrificed with Him, and so are raised with Him.

So when we "call upon the name of the Lord" we worship, and this worship requires sacrifice, and the sacrifice is us presenting ourselves as living sacrifices, which is doing the will of the Father, which ties back to Matthew 7:21. It can't just be "Lord, Lord" just as Jeremiah says you can't just say "the temple, the temple, the temple". God says through Jeremiah in a chapter 7:

"Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered!'...?"

They were even doing the sacrifices right! But it's not about the external form of worship alone but the heart. God is so mad He tells Jeremiah don't even pray for them, don't intercede, I will not listen! This is serious stuff. To the Pharisees Jesus Christ says, mercy, justice, and faithfulness you should have done without neglecting the other external forms of worship and obedience. So it has to be both.

We were only created for worship, but not just any worship - the right worship. Internally and externally, spirit and truth. His will is that we worship, and through Christ we worship correctly, in spirit and truth, and this is the means and end of salvtion, to be saved. This is how I think we must understand Joel 2:32 and Matthew 7:21. And, I think, this gives insight to how we are saved and why saying "Lord, Lord" - or "the temple of the lord, the temple of the lord" is not sufficient. It's not enough to follow the law, or to be circumcised (or baptized), or to do the sacrifices (or go to Church) and then do what God says are abominations before Him and trusting in deceptive words, come before Him worship and say "I'm delivered."

If this turned the earthly temple into a den of thieves, how much more to defile ourselves, our bodies who are each the temple of the Lord?

So is he going to hell or not?

I am still trying to figure out the reason for the op. Am I missing something?

k2aggie07 said:

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Why is support for the country of Israel important for Christians?

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See the previous post by Woody above re: revenge fantasies.

dermdoc said:

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I am still trying to figure out the reason for the op. Am I missing something?

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Clearly he's just asking for a friend.

Frok said:

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So is he going to hell or not?

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I don't know as I am not a Calvinist. Still trying to wrap my head around the purpose behind the op. Is he glad(in his opinion)Jimmy Carter is going to Hell? Are there certain things the op knows that automatically condemn somebody to Hell? And since Carter has definitely heard the Gospel does that mean he was pre ordained to Hell? I am confused.

is writing a book with jerry falwell jr not enough to save your mortal soul?

dermdoc said:

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Frok said:

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So is he going to hell or not?

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I don't know as I am not a Calvinist. Still trying to wrap my head around the purpose behind the op. Is he glad(in his opinion)Jimmy Carter is going to Hell? Are there certain things the op knows that automatically condemn somebody to Hell? And since Carter has definitely heard the Gospel does that mean he was pre ordained to Hell? I am confused.

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I don't know. I was just making a joke because the thread went into theological arguments after a fairly obvious troll.

But I would guess it's because Jimmy Carter makes statements that look like he does not believe what traditional christianity teaches.

RetiredAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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I am still trying to figure out the reason for the op. Am I missing something?

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Clearly he's just asking for a friend.

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Tampa is really Jimmy Carter??!?

Frok said:

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dermdoc said:

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Frok said:

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So is he going to hell or not?

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I don't know as I am not a Calvinist. Still trying to wrap my head around the purpose behind the op. Is he glad(in his opinion)Jimmy Carter is going to Hell? Are there certain things the op knows that automatically condemn somebody to Hell? And since Carter has definitely heard the Gospel does that mean he was pre ordained to Hell? I am confused.

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I don't know. I was just making a joke because the thread went into theological arguments after a fairly obvious troll.

But I would guess it's because Jimmy Carter makes statements that look like he does not believe what traditional christianity teaches.

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"Traditional Christianity" was for limited abortion and slavery if I remember correctly.

And certainly for segregation. And the way I read the Gospel being pro choice is not an unpardonable sin. Whatever, being flippant about anyone (at least in your view) being subjected to eternal conscious torment seems beyond the pale to me.

Are you just looking to be pissed off? I was making a joke about the thread. Not glorifying in eternal torment.