Lazarus

1,501 Views | 20 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Pro Sandy
Martin Q. Blank
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Jesus said "Lazarus, come out."

A Calvinist would say Lazarus could not come out without Jesus first rising him from the dead.

A non-Calvinist would emphasize the fact that Lazarus did in fact come out of his own will. i.e. Jesus didn't make him come out.

Is this correct?
Zobel
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AG
I've never looked at this as a test case for either doctrine. He was dead for four days, he wasn't going to be doing anything at all by himself, sinful or otherwise.

I think Jesus raised St Lazarus from the dead, which required no action whatsoever on St Lazarus' part (because he was well and truly dead, and had been for four days). But, then, I suppose once raised from the dead he could have decided to ignore Jesus and hang out in the tomb, in the dark, wrapped up in linen by himself. Even until he died again, I guess.

The only way you could really make a case is to suggest (as some calvinists do) that spiritual death is similar to actual death. But, they then go on to say that we still move around and act and choose, which doesn't seem very "dead" to me.
Martin Q. Blank
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What is spiritual death?
Zobel
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AG
This, I believe, what people refer to when they read St Paul's saying of "dead in your trespasses".
Dr. Venkman
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AG
Which is contrasted by one who has been "made alive". Lazarus did not choose to be made alive. Of course he did choose to come out of the tomb, but only after Jesus made him alive. The man in the next tomb could not do the same.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

This, I believe, what people refer to when they read St Paul's saying of "dead in your trespasses".
People dead in their trespasses still "move around and act and choose" so it seems they are right.
Zobel
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AG
Then it's a metaphorical death and comparing it to physical death in a literal sense - that a person is unable to do anything - is silly. Which was my point.
Zobel
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AG
You need to show your work that physical death and the metaphor used by St Paul are identical.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

Then it's a metaphorical death and comparing it to physical death in a literal sense - that a person is unable to do anything - is silly. Which was my point.
Who says they are unable to do anything? The claim I hear is they are unable to please God. (Rom. 8:8)
Zobel
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AG
Then using the literal comparison to a physically dead body is a poor means of explaining what St Paul is describing. Which, again, is my point. Dead bodies don't do anything.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

Then using the literal comparison to a physically dead body is a poor means of explaining what St Paul is describing. Which, again, is my point. Dead bodies don't do anything.
I did not use that comparison. Did someone else?
Zobel
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AG
Posters on here before have, and I believe you are inviting the comparison in your OP. Are you having fun?
Martin Q. Blank
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The comparison is:
A person who is "spiritually dead", "dead in their trespasses", etc. is unable to please God without being "made alive". Not that that particular person is unable to do anything. I have never heard anyone say that before.
Zobel
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AG
Then why did you bring up Lazarus who was not spiritually dead but physically dead?
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

Then why did you bring up Lazarus who was not spiritually dead but physically dead?
To show that he could not in fact "come out" without Jesus making him alive. And also that Lazarus did come out, out of his own volition. He was not compelled to.
Zobel
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AG
What does this have to do with Calvinism, if you are not making an analogue between Lazarus' physical death and spiritual death?
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

What does this have to do with Calvinism, if you are not making an analogue between Lazarus' physical death and spiritual death?
I am making an analogue. Just not the one you are.
sawemoff2010
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AG
I just think outs a good thing Jesus said "*LAZARUS* come out"

....if he would have just said "come out" a whole bunch of dead guys would have been raised
dermdoc
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AG
Is this supposed to be an argument for Calvinism?
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Is this supposed to be an argument for Calvinism?
It's a question as to how Calvinists and non-Calvinists view the same event.
dermdoc
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AG
I do not believe non Calvinists view someone who is unsaved as dead. They do not generally believe in total depravity.

Edited to add that I have non Christian friends(and I assume Calvinists do also) and I do not see total depravity.
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Pro Sandy
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AG
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