I prefer #1....

Thaddeus73 said:

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I prefer #1....

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You're also neglecting our catholics, who possess a third option.


What is your purpose here? Are you looking for blue stars from the Christians? Or are you trying to warn the nonbelievers who reject your entire premise and so will not be convinced by your meme?

Edit: Correcting 6:30 spelling/grammar erro

In the end, whether we go through Purgatory or not, those are the two final choices.

Evangelization....Deal with it...

Thaddeus73 said:

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Evangelization....Deal with it...

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John 5-24 is a pretty good evangelization verse. And I never remember any of the apostles using the threat of Hell in their preachings or letters.

Edited to add that the Gospel is a message of hope, peace, and redemption not a means to only escape "Hell".

Thaddeus73 said:

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I prefer #1....

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I hope I can land cool superhero poses while falling into Hell

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You are acting like the crazy guy standing on a stool, shouting at people going about their day to repent.

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Have you met Thad? That's exactly what he is.

Nothing wrong with street preaching imho. I am not called to do it but God bless those who are.

dermdoc said:

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Nothing wrong with street preaching imho. I am not called to do it but God bless those who are.

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Most of them come off as deranged lunatics.

Maybe so. But if they save one person then it was worth it imho.

dermdoc said:

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Maybe so. But if they save one person then it was worth it imho.

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I wonder how many people they turn off vs saved?

Do you think it is the speaker or the message that turns them off? IMHO, it is the message as long as the message being preached is the Gospel.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I get a little Calvinistic here. It is worth it if one hears and believes. Those who are "turned off" would not believe no matter how the message was presented.

dermdoc said:

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Do you think it is the speaker or the message that turns them off? IMHO, it is the message as long as the message being preached is the Gospel.

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As a doctor, does your bedside manner have an effect on how well a diagnosis is received? Does the presentation your sales reps who call on you give to you influence your buying decision at all?

Presentation matters.

dermdoc said:

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Those who are "turned off" would not believe no matter how the message was presented.

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How the message is presented is more important than the message itself in terms of general trends. This is the reason why the correlation between geography / parents and religious affiliation is so strong.

dermdoc said:

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Do you think it is the speaker or the message that turns them off? IMHO, it is the message as long as the message being preached is the Gospel.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I get a little Calvinistic here. It is worth it if one hears and believes. Those who are "turned off" would not believe no matter how the message was presented.

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The speaker. I talk for a living and I'm around other people who talk for a living. Speaking well and with your audience, rather than at them, has a huge impact. A dude with a megaphone screaming about how I'm going to Hell isnt helping.

Maybe so. Let me ask if the non believers on here, surely someone has presented to you the simple Gospel in a non condemning manner. That we are all sinners, that the result of sin is death, and Christ died for those sins so we could have eternal life. Did the "right" presentation change your mind and cause you to believe?

dermdoc said:

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Do you think it is the speaker or the message that turns them off? IMHO, it is the message as long as the message being preached is the Gospel.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I get a little Calvinistic here. It is worth it if one hears and believes. Those who are "turned off" would not believe no matter how the message was presented.

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For some people (myself included) it doesn't matter how nicely the message is conveyed - they (I) just don't subscribe to the supernatural claims. The only thing that changes with the different approaches is how we react - do I laugh at you as I walk past your screaming, or do I politely tell a nice person I'm not interested?

But then there are others who are more open to that kind of thing. I can't imagine the hysterical screaming approach to work on very many of them. Heck, your own book talks about catching more flies with honey and all that. I think one reason Mormonism has grown as much as it has despite its ridiculous message is because its followers are just so damn nice to people when they talk about it.

What about chanting? Millennials love a good chant right?

Just as people learn by different techniques (visually vs. verbally vs. physically vs. etc..etc..) I view this type "preaching/evangelism" as just a different ways and means to accomplish the goal...Is it my cup of tea? No.. but it doesn't bother me..I'm pretty comfortable in my Christianity and know there are a handful of folks that may be drawn to this type of message...

I'm not quite sure what someone can say to convince me. But I'm much more willing to listen if they actually are polite, have something to say, and are compelling. However, a "bad" presentation would definitely make me not want to listen to anyone in the future. Why would I want to join a club that crazy guy is a part of?

I thought this earlier post was insightful:

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At best it will make the job harder for every Christian because, believe it or not, people tend to form stereotypes from the behavior of the crazy outliers of each group and assume all of us are as crazy as you.

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That's OK - Jesus mentioned the possibility of going to hell, a lot. I don't know how anyone can preach the gospel without mentioning hell. Yes, God loves us all, and that certainly is the message of picture #1. But to ignore the possibility of going to hell is NOT preaching the entire gospel. The Church of Nice is not the Church of Jesus.

Hell in the Gospel

Simple question, how did a valley used as a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem get translated into a created word hell over 1500 years after Christ? Why did Paul, in all his letters and preaching, never threaten Hell? Surely that should have been a point of emphasis as eternal torment is a pretty big deal.

And if Helll was created since the beginnnning of time, why was it not mentioned in the OT when Adam and Eve sinned? Or Cain killed Abel? Or the flood?

Why is Sheol which means grave, translated half the time as "Hell" and half the time as grave? Do you think the translators were innerant also? If so, why the confusion? You might want to read up a little on how the concept of Hell came about as I know I learned a lot. God Bless.

Gehenna, a continually burning trash dump, was used as a visual representation of continually burning in hell for the unrepentant sinner.

Sheol, or Hades, was the place where OT saved people went to wait for the salvation of Christ. Peter says that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (Hades). It's still around, BTW.

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Why did Paul, in all his letters and preaching, never threaten Hell?

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Not true, if you assume that Paul wrote Hebrews, which some dispute...

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Would not that be annihilationism?

dermdoc said:

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Maybe so. Let me ask if the non believers on here, surely someone has presented to you the simple Gospel in a non condemning manner. That we are all sinners, that the result of sin is death, and Christ died for those sins so we could have eternal life. Did the "right" presentation change your mind and cause you to believe?

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It certainly did when I was younger and questioning my faith. And as an adult with serious doubts I read a lot by respectful, logical authors and worked through their arguments. I spent exactly zero seconds parsing through the argument of the guy at the bus stop by the student center at my graduate school who screamed about hellfire and the pope through his bullhorn.

You might want to read the bible and what Jesus said about hell, through his bullhorn...

The word hell did not exist when Jesus was around so He said nothing about it. It was invented from the Dutch word hel and the German word holle. Why did the KJV folks invent a new word? Why did they not just translate it as Gehenna unless there was an agenda? And back to the Paul thing, except for a reference in Hebrews, which he may or may not have written, why diid he not stress that in his letters to the churches like modern hellfire and brimstone preacher do?

And Thaddeus I used to believe just like you do but the concept of Hell as a pre created torture chamber bothered me. Especially with the idea of Jesus showing us what God is like. So I have done a lot of reading and changed my views. And whats interesting is that I really love God now and can worship him joyfully. And my witness has improved dramatically. And do not worry about me spreading false doctrine. When I witness, I just present the simple Gospel. And from my understanding, that is how it was done in the NT.

I highly recommend Benjamin Corey's series on Hell at patheos.com. Even if you do not agree with him it is educational.

dermdoc said:

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And Thaddeus I used to believe just like you do but the concept of Hell as a pre created torture chamber bothered me. Especially with the idea of Jesus showing us what God is like. So I have done a lot of reading and changed my views. And whats interesting is that I really love God now and can worship him joyfully. And my witness has improved dramatically. And do not worry about me spreading false doctrine. When I witness, I just present the simple Gospel. And from my understanding, that is how it was done in the NT.

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I went down that same path before eventually conceding that the Biblical position makes a pretty strong case for eternal hell in Mark 9:48

Then I also concluded that even annihilation still doesn't completely alleviate the problem with the bible making the claim that God loves everyone.

Hence, I just dumped belief in the Bible altogether.