P and S: Fallacies Physicists Fall For

2,591 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Repeat the Line
Athanasius
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AG
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/07/fallacies-physicists-fall-for.html

I highly recommend anything Dr. Feser writes. Here is a bit, but the entire post is worth reading...

Quote:

Scientism is simply not a coherent position. You cannot avoid having distinctively philosophical and extra-scientific theoretical commitments, because the very attempt to do so entails having distinctively philosophical and extra-scientific theoretical commitments. And if you think that these commitments arerationally justifiable ones and of course, anyone beholden to scientism thinks his view is paradigmatically rational then you are implicitly admitting that there can be such a thing as a rationally justifiable thesis which is not a scientific thesis. Which is, of course, what scientism denies. Thus scientism is unavoidably self-defeating.

The fallacy is simple, and blindingly obvious once you see it. So why is it so common? Why do so many otherwise genuinely smart people (as well as people who merely like to think they are smart, like combox trolls) fall into it?

Part of the reason is precisely because it is so common and so simple. Again, as Putnam complains, even many professional scientists (by no means all, but many) commit the fallacy. So, when you call someone out on it, there is a strong temptation for him to think: "If my critic is right, then I and lots of other scientists have been committing a pretty obvious fallacy for a very long time. Surely that can't be!" They think that there must be some way to avoid the contradiction, even if they are never able to say what it is, and always end up doing exactly what they claim to be avoiding, viz. making extra-scientific philosophical claims. Paradoxically, the very obviousness and prevalence of the fallacy keeps them from seeing it. As Orwell famously said, "to see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

Then there is the element of pride. You have to be smart to do natural science. Combox trolls usually are not very smart, but theythink of themselves as smart, because they at least have the capacity to pepper their remarks with words like "physics," "science," "reason," etc. as well as to rehearse whatever science trivia they picked up from Wikipedia. So, suppose you are either a scientist or a combox troll who has gotten your head full of scientism. You are convinced that philosophers and other non-scientists have nothing of interest to say. Then one of them points out that you are committing a fallacy so simple that a child can see it. That can be very hard to swallow. And if the person pointing out the self-defeating character of scientism happens to be religious, the blow to one's pride can be absolutely excruciating. "Some religious nut is going to catch me out on a blatant fallacy? No way in hell! I refuse to believe it!" One's pride in one's presumed superior rationality locks one into a deeplyirrational frame of mind.

A third factor is that, though the fallacy is pretty simple, you have to have at least a rudimentary understanding of certain philosophical concepts realism, instrumentalism, self-contradiction, etc. and a basic willingness to think philosophically, in order to be able to see it. Now, suppose you not only don't know much about philosophy, but are positively contemptuous of it (as those beholden to scientism often are). Then you are not going to know very much about it, and you are not likely to be able to think very clearly about even the little bit you do know. Your prejudices keep getting in the way. You are bound to be blind even to obvious fallacies like the one in question.

The bottom line is that if you cannot help doing philosophy for again, the very act of denying that one needs to do it itself involves one in a philosophical commitment but at the same time also refuse to do it, then you are inevitably both going to do it and do it badly.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Can you name anyone of note who subscribes to Scientism the way Feser describes it in his post? For instance, Richard Dawkins, who Feser has criticized openly and freely, admits on multiple occasions that he subscribes to a philosophy of naive realism. As far as I can tell, Feser's post has snuffed out a straw man. It is more accurate to say that those typically accused of Scientism assert that any ontology you subscribe to must be consistent with empirical evidence. On the other hand, Scientism as Feser describes it is nonexistent.

It is always interesting to me that this is the only topic where when discussing people's professional results they are asked to defend the philosophy underpinning their profession. Nobody goes up to an accountant and accuses them of Mathism if they can't justify the very foundational notions of mathematics. On the other hand, a physicist discusses his results and people want to question him on the very nature of reality itself. Perhaps what we experience isn't really real, they say, or at least if it is you ought to be able to justify why it is. Physicists build machines that break things apart to their fundamental nature, or detect waves in the very fabric of the cosmos, and study them and publish their results and then get the idiotic and totally irrelevant charge that unless they can justify the principle that reality is real their results are in question? And people wonder why they're upset! Give me a break. The reason that scientists say they don't want to discuss metaphysics is not because those questions aren't interesting or worthy of discussion, but because that is not their profession. Of course they have to subscribe to the belief that reality is real as observed, but the scientist's job is to present his results within that framework, not to defend that framework. You would think a man of Dr. Feser's stature would understand this. Would Dr. Feser really be more content if all physics papers were prefaced with "assuming reality is real"?

I have a hypothesis about why people make this charge against physicists (and evolutionary biologists but very rarely with anything in between). You see, people want to believe that reality is real and as observed and all that, but occasionally physics has things to say about that reality that they don't like. By casting aspersions on the philosophy physicists operate under they hope to damage the trust in their results. They then happily go on believing in the philosophy they were just criticizing the physicist for. They don't ever question their own conclusions resulting from that philosophy. You're not going to see anyone going and pogoing on a crowded interstate because they doubt the reality of their experience of cars and big-rigs. But it's not okay for a scientist to operate under those exact same notions. This kind of double-think requires an extraordinary amount of cognitive dissonance. Is it possible that the results of the physicist don't coincide with Feser's presuppositions, and he's simply trying to pass the buck?
kurt vonnegut
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Texaggie7nine
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I don't follow the guy or know what his criticism are beyond this article but I can say I share some of the concern he is putting out there.

As a philosophy first science second type of guy, I get annoyed at many of the leading minds in physics, especially particle physics who call themselves "theorists" but refuse to ever attach what they know about particle physics to philosophical ontology.

I think there should be a lot more merging of those fields.

What the Bleep do you Know may have been completely misleading and stupid, but it was my first step over a decade ago into an entire new way of seeing the world and what may be reality.

Why do so many scientists absolutely HATE the idea of a subjective observer when I see nowhere that it has ABSOLUTELY been proven that conscious observing can maybe not CAUSE a probability wave collapse, but affect it in some way. I understand that it makes them feel dirty to consider anything like that, but that is using emotion instead of pure reason.
7nine
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Why? Why should an expert in calculating or measuring scattering amplitudes need to be able to answer probably the most challenging philosophical question ever posed to not have his results questioned? The two things don't seem to me to have that much to do with each other.
Texaggie7nine
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dargscisyhp said:

Why? Why should an expert in calculating or measuring scattering amplitudes need to be able to answer probably the most challenging philosophical question ever posed to not have his results questioned? The two things don't seem to me to have that much to do with each other.
They have everything to do with each other because ultimately they both concern the question "what is our reality?"

It would be like a detective asking for an opinion from a neuroscientist on a suspect's possible motive for murder when the scientist knows a lot about his brain chemistry and the neuroscientist saying what does that have to do with what I do?

7nine
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A more apt analogy might be insisting that a neuroscientist do the job of the detective. That's the way it seems to me, anyhow.

Everything ultimately has to do with the nature of our reality. But the janitor doesn't need to concern himself with the underlying reason for our innate sense of disgust to perform his job.

It is the physicist's job to determine certain things about our reality. Some of these things may even have some metaphysical implications, which the physicist may be able to comment on. But whether what we experience actually exists or we are a brain in a vat is outside his domain of expertise, nor does it need to concern him for him to adequately do his job, in the same way the janitor does not need to concern himself with philosophical questions regarding our experience of disgust.
Texaggie7nine
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Janitors are there to remove causes of disgust. I don't see that analogy working out.

If there isn't a more applicable job for finding the very essence of reality than Theoretical Physicist, then I don't know what is. Philosophers do not study quantum mechanics at the same level.
7nine
Athanasius
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dargscisyhp said:

Can you name anyone of note who subscribes to Scientism the way Feser describes it in his post? For instance, Richard Dawkins, who Feser has criticized openly and freely, admits on multiple occasions that he subscribes to a philosophy of naive realism. As far as I can tell, Feser's post has snuffed out a straw man. It is more accurate to say that those typically accused of Scientism assert that any ontology you subscribe to must be consistent with empirical evidence. On the other hand, Scientism as Feser describes it is nonexistent.
This is not my experience at all. Many of the physicists I follow are constrained by a materialism that looks an awful lot like Scientism. I'm glad of those that at least follow a naive realism, as long as they acknowledge they are now making truth statements without using the scientific method, and that, therefore, truth can be found outside of the method.

Quote:

It is always interesting to me that this is the only topic where when discussing people's professional results they are asked to defend the philosophy underpinning their profession. Nobody goes up to an accountant and accuses them of Mathism if they can't justify the very foundational notions of mathematics.
You also rarely, if ever, see Accountants that think their field allows them to step into metaphysical conclusions without acknowledging the value of metaphysical tools. Hawking did this ALL THE TIME.

Quote:

On the other hand, a physicist discusses his results and people want to question him on the very nature of reality itself. Perhaps what we experience isn't really real, they say, or at least if it is you ought to be able to justify why it is. Physicists build machines that break things apart to their fundamental nature, or detect waves in the very fabric of the cosmos, and study them and publish their results and then get the idiotic and totally irrelevant charge that unless they can justify the principle that reality is real their results are in question? And people wonder why they're upset! Give me a break. The reason that scientists say they don't want to discuss metaphysics is not because those questions aren't interesting or worthy of discussion, but because that is not their profession. Of course they have to subscribe to the belief that reality is real as observed, but the scientist's job is to present his results within that framework, not to defend that framework. You would think a man of Dr. Feser's stature would understand this. Would Dr. Feser really be more content if all physics papers were prefaced with "assuming reality is real"?

If certain physicists stayed in their lane, so to speak, and didn't move to the philosophical realm without acknowledging it's value as a way to find truth, then we wouldn't see this conflict.

It reminds me of a few funnies...

"Why does philosophy matter?"

"I don't know, why does science matter?"
"Well because scie-"
"Annnnnnnd you are doing philosophy."



Quote:

I have a hypothesis about why people make this charge against physicists (and evolutionary biologists but very rarely with anything in between). You see, people want to believe that reality is real and as observed and all that, but occasionally physics has things to say about that reality that they don't like. By casting aspersions on the philosophy physicists operate under they hope to damage the trust in their results. They then happily go on believing in the philosophy they were just criticizing the physicist for. They don't ever question their own conclusions resulting from that philosophy. You're not going to see anyone going and pogoing on a crowded interstate because they doubt the reality of their experience of cars and big-rigs. But it's not okay for a scientist to operate under those exact same notions. This kind of double-think requires an extraordinary amount of cognitive dissonance. Is it possible that the results of the physicist don't coincide with Feser's presuppositions, and he's simply trying to pass the buck?
This isn't at all the case. It is simply a matter of keeping one intellectually honest. The Scientific Method is valuable in seeking truth.

The statement I made, "The Scientific Method is valuable in seeking truth' is a philosophical truth, not one arrived at through use of the Scientific Method.

If these types of physicists would at least acknowledge that, it would help. In fact, I dare say it would eliminate this type of concern altogether, or at least confine it to the halls of the Genesis Ark or whatever in Tennessee.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Quote:

You also rarely, if ever, see Accountants that think their field allows them to step into metaphysical conclusions without acknowledging the value of metaphysical tools. Hawking did this ALL THE TIME.



Good, a concrete example. Let's flesh this out. Where do you feel Hawking overstepped?
Star Wars Memes Only
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Texaggie7nine said:

Janitors are there to remove causes of disgust. I don't see that analogy working out.

If there isn't a more applicable job for finding the very essence of reality than Theoretical Physicist, then I don't know what is. Philosophers do not study quantum mechanics at the same level.


I think perhaps we are talking past each other. I do think physics has some limited things to say about metaphysics (I.e philosophy of time), but most of metaphysics falls outside the scope. But where their expertise applies, physicists should (and do, in my opinion) comment. That seems different than the point Feser was making.
Athanasius
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dargscisyhp said:

Quote:

You also rarely, if ever, see Accountants that think their field allows them to step into metaphysical conclusions without acknowledging the value of metaphysical tools. Hawking did this ALL THE TIME.



Good, a concrete example. Let's flesh this out. Where do you feel Hawking overstepped?
I would love if you would comment on the other parts of my post, but here is an easy one...

Quote:

Speaking to Google's Zeitgeist Conference in Hertfordshire, the author of 'A Brief History of Time' said that fundamental questions about the nature of the universe could not be resolved without hard data such as that currently being derived from the Large Hadron Collider and space research. "Most of us don't worry about these questions most of the time. But almost all of us must sometimes wonder: Why are we here? Where do we come from? Traditionally, these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead," he said. "Philosophers have not kept up with modern developments in science. Particularly physics."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/8520033/Stephen-Hawking-tells-Google-philosophy-is-dead.html
Texaggie7nine
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Ok then. Do you feel that the large majority of the best minds in theoretical physics would be perfectly ok considering that perhaps only conscious observers do in fact collapse the wave function and reality was in fact "designed" as such as opposed to happen by chance?
7nine
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Quote:

I would love if you would comment on the other parts of my post


Apologies, I replied quickly this morning via phone. I will do my best to do so tonight when I have access to a computer.
Athanasius
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dargscisyhp said:

Quote:

I would love if you would comment on the other parts of my post


Apologies, I replied quickly this morning via phone. I will do my best to do so tonight when I have access to a computer.
NO rush. You're one of my favorite posters, so just looking for more insight.
Athanasius
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Another related example.

https://www.cnet.com/news/there-is-no-god-stephen-hawking-writes-in-final-book/

Quote:

Late physicist Stephen Hawking's final book was published Tuesday, and he doesn't fail to take on the big issues, including the existence of God.

"Do I have faith?" he writes in Brief Answers to the Big Questions. "We are each free to believe what we want, and it's my view that the simplest explanation is that there is no God. No one created the universe, and no one directs our fate."

Hawking goes on to say that this realization made him decide belief in an afterlife was just "wishful thinking" and that "when we die, we return to dust."
I don't see how that falls into the realm of natural sciences. Measure, observe, etc... very difficult.
Repeat the Line
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He still hasn't replied yet, has he?
Repeat the Line
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Athanasius, has be answered you yet?
Athanasius
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Automated Chatbot said:

Athanasius, has be answered you yet?
No, but I'm not too interested in that. I just think it needs to be discussed when people, superior in certain disciplines, stretch into others they are not competent in.

People need to know the difference.

I do this all the time- I am guilty of stretching into areas I'm incompetent, and also listening to people that are incompetent because they are competent in other areas.

To be clear, Hawking discussing God and those concepts isn't wrong. Also, it is another very admirable facet in his life, that he is a seeker.

What I want to share awareness of is that people make the leap from 'Well, he knows physics, so when he talks about the metaphysical, he must be right as well.'

It simply doesn't follow.

This thread just shows some examples.
94chem
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What is a combox?
Repeat the Line
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Still not a word, huh? Goodness.
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