Currently, I believe that Churches have all sorts of tax exemptions. Even more, they don't have to disclose their finances in the tax exemption IRS 990 form (Churches are exempt). Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this as I am not an expert.

One troubling part of this is who decides what is a church and eligible for the exemptions? Is Scientology? Other?

I am not religious, but have no problem with granting churches a non-profit status and exempting from some taxes. If people give their money to the church voluntarily, it doesn't me influence me one bit what they do with it.

The exception is property tax. I think everyone owning property should pay property tax. Otherwise, people are subsidizing the church it seems. The road to the church is paid for by the gov't, the church benefits, therefore should contribute. Same argument for firemen and police etc.

Churches often are located on main street downtown (premium location). If they paid property tax, the church might move out of town where taxes are cheaper, freeing up a tax producing entity to locate where the church was. Folks can still drive to the church on Sunday. Its a win win it seems.

Also, I think the IRS 990 exemption should be removed. If the gov't gives you tax-free status, the public has the right to know your finances.

Do people agree? Should churches pay property tax? Should the church exemption for IRS 990 be waived?

I should mention many of my friends think that the entire tax-free status for churches should go away (i.e. they think I don't go far enough in my thinking).

lespaul said:

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Currently, I believe that Churches have all sorts of tax exemptions. Even more, they don't have to disclose their finances in the tax exemption IRS 990 form (Churches are exempt). Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this as I am not an expert.

One troubling part of this is who decides what is a church and eligible for the exemptions? Is Scientology? Other?

I am not religious, but have no problem with granting churches a non-profit status and exempting from some taxes. If people give their money to the church voluntarily, it doesn't me influence me one bit what they do with it.

The exception is property tax. I think everyone owning property should pay property tax. Otherwise, people are subsidizing the church it seems. The road to the church is paid for by the gov't, the church benefits, therefore should contribute. Same argument for firemen and police etc.

Churches often are located on main street downtown (premium location). If they paid property tax, the church might move out of town where taxes are cheaper, freeing up a tax producing entity to locate where the church was. Folks can still drive to the church on Sunday. Its a win win it seems.

Also, I think the IRS 990 exemption should be removed. If the gov't gives you tax-free status, the public has the right to know your finances.

Do people agree? Should churches pay property tax? Should the church exemption for IRS 990 be waived?

I should mention many of my friends think that the entire tax-free status for churches should go away (i.e. they think I don't go far enough in my thinking).

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You're assuming the church provides no good that mitigates not being taxed. There are few if any things in the community that assemble such a diverse socio-economic crowd and encourage them to interact and support each other. In a society where people are increasingly withdrawing into a cultivated reality (social media) and leaving face to face interaction behind (which encourages empathy) the church is helping where you do not.

AGC: You seem to be implying that the church does a lot of good for the community (place to meet etc) so it shouldn't pay property tax. My guess is you are picturing your personal church when making this claim. I respect your position.

However, what if a unitarian church came to town, would you feel the same way? Scientology church? Mormon church? Islamic Mosque? Who decides which church is eligible and the community benefit provided?

How about if the freedom from religion foundation (FFRF) moved from Madison to your town? Should they pay taxes? People meet there I am sure.

With that said, I was still don't have a problem with churches being tax free (parsonage taxes, income tax, salary taxes etc). However, I do feel that any property owner (church or other) should pay property tax. I also feel the church (and all non-profits including FFRF etc) should disclose their finances like all other non-profits. If you don't want to disclose, don't claim tax-exemption IMHO.

lespaul said:

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AGC: You seem to be implying that the church does a lot of good for the community (place to meet etc) so it shouldn't pay property tax. My guess is you are picturing your personal church when making this claim. I respect your position.

However, what if a unitarian church came to town, would you feel the same way? Scientology church? Mormon church? Islamic Mosque? Who decides which church is eligible and the community benefit provided?

How about if the freedom from religion foundation (FFRF) moved from Madison to your town? Should they pay taxes? People meet there I am sure.

With that said, I was still don't have a problem with churches being tax free (parsonage taxes, income tax, salary taxes etc). However, I do feel that any property owner (church or other) should pay property tax. I also feel the church (and all non-profits including FFRF etc) should disclose their finances like all other non-profits. If you don't want to disclose, don't claim tax-exemption IMHO.

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You make a lot of assumptions. The point stands for the others, save FFRF. Being a meeting place doesn't encourage socially beneficial behavior in and of itself, otherwise it's an easy leap to make bars tax exempt.

I'm not even sure what point your making about finances.

I think that the case for having 503c organizations, and not including churches in that, is extremely shakey at best, and unworkable at worst.

If my church lost its 503c status, we would just form 3 or 4 503c organizations to head up our mission and community service projects, and all the donations to the church would funnel through those tax free. The only thing that would be taxed is the organization around the worship service, which would be like 10% of the budget or so. So, the only thing that you would do is create more headaches.

Ah yes, lets give more money to Donald Trump to manage.

lespaul said:

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AGC: You seem to be implying that the church does a lot of good for the community (place to meet etc) so it shouldn't pay property tax. My guess is you are picturing your personal church when making this claim. I respect your position.

However, what if a unitarian church came to town, would you feel the same way? Scientology church? Mormon church? Islamic Mosque? Who decides which church is eligible and the community benefit provided?

How about if the freedom from religion foundation (FFRF) moved from Madison to your town? Should they pay taxes? People meet there I am sure.

With that said, I was still don't have a problem with churches being tax free (parsonage taxes, income tax, salary taxes etc). However, I do feel that any property owner (church or other) should pay property tax. I also feel the church (and all non-profits including FFRF etc) should disclose their finances like all other non-profits. If you don't want to disclose, don't claim tax-exemption IMHO.

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Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Exclude churches that break the law and fine them. Treat everyone the same under the law.

This is 1st ammendment territory. I support free speech as a concept, even if I don't support everything people say.

Respectfully, you are the one making assumptions about the value churches give a community (which I think we can all agree varies greatly). I want to circumvent these assumptions. You own property, you pay property tax. Simple - no assumptions.

As far as finances, I think all non-profits (including churches who are currently exempt) should have to fill out a 990 form, disclosing their finances publicly. If the pastor at a local church I am subsidizing gets $20M per year housing allowance tax-free, I feel the public has a right to know.

BusterAg said:

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I think that the case for having 503c organizations, and not including churches in that, is extremely shakey at best, and unworkable at worst.

If my church lost its 503c status, we would just form 3 or 4 503c organizations to head up our mission and community service projects, and all the donations to the church would funnel through those tax free. The only thing that would be taxed is the organization around the worship service, which would be like 10% of the budget or so. So, the only thing that you would do is create more headaches.

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Churches should have to follow the same laws as every 503c. Currently they don't.

I would be more than happy for you to form 503c and provide more disclosure to the public.

Agree.

I heard a pretty solid argument that if you start taxing churches, you no longer have separation of Church and State because now the State has the ability to put Churches out of business via taxation.

We are all thinking about the Joel Osteen's of the world, and sure he could handle the taxes, but many many much smaller Church's would not be able to survive.

lespaul said:

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Respectfully, you are the one making assumptions about the value churches give a community (which I think we can all agree varies greatly). I want to circumvent these assumptions. You own property, you pay property tax. Simple - no assumptions.

As far as finances, I think all non-profits (including churches who are currently exempt) should have to fill out a 990 form, disclosing their finances publicly. If the pastor at a local church I am subsidizing gets $20M per year housing allowance tax-free, I feel the public has a right to know.

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I don't have a strong opinion on the 990 form. A lot of churches provide that information to their members. Mine does.

It will never happen, though, due to the catholic church.

While I think this country is over taxed and I'm generally for a very small government, as it stands now, the tax "exemptions" give the state leverage over churches. All churches should completely willing to walk away from the exemption with ease as soon as the Gov threatens to use the exemption against them.

The power to tax is the power to control.

No, churches should remain tax exempt.

Their employees still pay taxes, but the church itself should not.

lespaul said:

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Respectfully, you are the one making assumptions about the value churches give a community (which I think we can all agree varies greatly). I want to circumvent these assumptions. You own property, you pay property tax. Simple - no assumptions.

As far as finances, I think all non-profits (including churches who are currently exempt) should have to fill out a 990 form, disclosing their finances publicly. If the pastor at a local church I am subsidizing gets $20M per year housing allowance tax-free, I feel the public has a right to know.

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The Pastor still has to pay his own income taxes. If the church is giving him a $20M housing allowance, I assume he has to claim that as income and then pay income taxes on it.

AgLiving06 said:

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Agree.

I heard a pretty solid argument that if you start taxing churches, you no longer have separation of Church and State because now the State has the ability to put Churches out of business via taxation.

We are all thinking about the Joel Osteen's of the world, and sure he could handle the taxes, but many many much smaller Church's would not be able to survive.

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This would disproportionately affect minority churches with poorer congregations and less ability to commute. That is part of why it will never happen.