An apologetic defense of why sexual purity is important

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Marco Esquandolas said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-years-of-marriage-and-divorce-in-the-united-states-in-one-chart/?utm_term=.701ce7b4a7e1



As the chart shows, marriage rates have declined steadily since the 1980s. Today they are lower than any other time since 1870, including during the Great Depression. However, divorce rates today are actually slightly down compared with the 1970s, '80s and '90s on a per capita basis.
In addition, you can see that events like World War I, World War II and the Great Depression all had a significant impact on marriage and divorce rates.
Couples rushed to the altar before the wars started, as well as at their conclusion. As Olson notes, divorces also spiked after the conclusion of WWII, perhaps because some couples who had married rashly before the war realized their differences.
The chart also shows an obvious drop in marriage rates during the Great Depression of the 1930s. Fewer jobs and less economic stability appears to be a popular reason for not forming new families a trend we also saw during the Great Recession.


Several problems:

A) This is not a graph of causation. A spike in marriage does not correspond with a spike in divorce, just like a drop in marriage rates doesn't indicate a larger drop in divorce rates is related. So concluding that a lower per capita divorce rate is reflective of greater cobabitating is inconclusive. The old stat about half of marriages ending in divorce is based on marriages and divorces in a year, not who, or how long they were married. Given that some who divorce are serial offenders the stats are likely skewed on both ends.

B) There are other equally reasonable explanations, such as soldiers coming back with PTSD and checking out like after the civil war. Or coming back changed after watching the horrors of the battlefield. WWII altered the face of Europe, that we would escape unscathed with so many young men going to fight as well isn't reasonable.

C) These reflect people's behavior but isn't a discussion of the underlying truth of which is best or preferable.

D) People who cohabitate don't equate their breakup to a marriage, when the reality is that's how they treat it. That's the whole point of a 'test drive'. Let's be married briefly without a permanent entanglement and we'll split without too much pain from divvying up retirement and bank accounts or losing insurance. We'll see what we'd normally learn in the first year of a marriage and then decide. Break ups of this nature should be treated as a divorce, not dating. That's not to say it can't work out like Kurt but if they were treated equally, since that is freely admitted as the whole point, cohabitation would (rightly) look a hell of a lot worse. It relies on sleight of hand to convince that it's not.
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Texaggie7nine said:

Quote:

A) No one is advocating rushing into marriage. Doing so is not a counter-example, it's just bad decision making.
B) If you're marrying to get your own needs met then you shouldn't ever get married (because it's the worst way ever to do it).

Yet, that doesn't change the fact that men especially are very sexually driven, and if getting married is the only way to get some on the regular due to religious and family restrictions, at the age of 19, marriage looks like a no-brainer.

I would posit that the church congregations that are more stringent on the no sex or living together till marriage would also have some of the youngest couples getting married. I know it is the case for the ones I have witnessed through family and friends.

Quote:


C) Marriages and relationships last because of commitment, not because you find someone you match perfectly with after living together. All relationships have seasons. Cohabitation just conditions you to jet when things get tough, rather than buckle down and work through it (after which it will get better because everything has seasons). Year one of marriage can be rough but as time passes if you're committed and putting the other person first as they do the same, you will work through the issues. My wife and I struggled through year one figuring out how to balance our capacity for socializing. But year five was better and it improves after that. People change because they want to, not because you want them to. Hence finding someone that is sacrificial rather than selfish is key in this matter. That's not a trait you have to live with someone to discover.

Without living together, it is very easy, even over a year to keep up appearances. To keep the mask on a lot of your flaws or things the other person may find just annoying or troublesome. People can grow apart, but a lot of the times, they were always growing in the same ways, but just not exposed to each other long enough to find that out.

Some people just plain don't belong together and it can take a lot of time to find that out. Living together quickens that learning process.


A) That doesn't make it a good decision. It is incumbent to have healthy discussions of what sex is and is not, and the intended and unintended consequence (not just pregnancy but neuroplasticity and rewiring your brain).

Anecdotal evidence is insufficient. It really depends on how sex is handled (not treating it like it's bad or mysterious) and what communication is like. And of course the presence of a father since girls with their fathers in the home hit puberty later and are far less likely to sleep around. Just as they teach their sons boundaries for aggressive behavior when they play and wrestle, while boys from homes where fathers are absent are more violent statistically, among other things. Kids function best with their biological parents in the home. This isn't even debatable from an academic perspective.

You're generally making criticisms of how sex is handled at churches and how well they prepare kids for abstinence.

B) Why would you marry someone after a year? I dated my wife for three. The normal cycle from meeting and infatuation to bottoming out before the relationship gets better again is about 18 months. And then it's going to happen in another 18 months anyways. Relationships ebb and flow which is why both people's commitment and selflessness is far more important than their sexual compatibility, how they brush their teeth, and whatever other issues they have.

Marriage is work. You have to work to stay engaged with your spouse. Have you ever planted a garden and ignored it for a week to find it still in pristine condition? Now what about a month? A year? People don't grow apart, they stop prioritizing the other person and start prioritizing themself (or their kids). If you have one fridge to share and you spend your time filling it with coke and she fills it with root beer, you'll both be disappointed because her gain is your loss (and vice versa). On the other hand, if you fill it with root beer for her and she stocks it with coke, you'll both be immensely fulfilled. If you're both willing to work when you cohabitate then a transition to marriage is easy. If you're not and they're not you'll just keep moving through partners because the problem is likely you.
booboo91
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Texaggie7nine said:


Retreats can be great. Many of them operate off of a slight form of brainwashing because you are exposed to a material or ideas for days without a real opportunity to hear counter arguments
Would say your entire life you hear the counter argument to God, 3 days at a Chrstiian/Catholic retreat (oldest organization in the world- not a new age cult) won't hurt you.

This retreat works because you encounter Agape (brotherly love). You also have time to listen, to turn off the noise of the world because there are no phones, tv or internet. This enables you to pray, to encounter the love, mercy and forgiveness of God.

You need to come, I just took another atheist buddy of mine on the last retreat in June. It is so wonderful to see the transformation. I promise you will relate to how George Bailey felt when you leave. You see all the blessings you have been given. It is Awesome!

booboo91
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mesocosm said:


Mega Eye Roll

Casual sex, promiscuity, sex as "pleasure over personal responsibility" has been the norm as long as there has been humans.
The question is not that something that has alway happened. We all agree from the very beginning of mankind- Adam and Eve: murder, rape, divorce, abortion, out of wedlock sex and out of wedlock births births has occured.

The question is what is the percentage? Out of wedlock births (no fathers) has risen from end of WW2 less than 4% to over 50%, 70% in African American Community. Young people are being taught: don't get married, screw everybody (male, female), there are no consequences. If you get pregnant (the natural consequence of sex is a baby), that is a mistake and kill the baby. TV, media, no role models - spin the line of seek pleasure at all costs.

The problem with our society is we are not teaching morals (the rules of personal responsiblity). Yes people have always broken the rules. But when you do not teach the rules at all, you see the results. Much higher percentage of folks participating in bad behavior.

Tangent comment: you want to fix Chicago. It is not the guns, but rather the lack of fathers raising their kids. Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.
Texaggie7nine
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Very, very, very few people will date for well over a year without living together or having sex. That's just a pipe dream. I don't care what their religious beliefs are.
7nine
Texaggie7nine
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Emotional arguments for God stopped working on me years ago. Sorry.
7nine
Sapper Redux
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booboo91 said:

Texaggie7nine said:


Retreats can be great. Many of them operate off of a slight form of brainwashing because you are exposed to a material or ideas for days without a real opportunity to hear counter arguments
Would say your entire life you hear the counter argument to God, 3 days at a Chrstiian/Catholic retreat (oldest organization in the world- not a new age cult) won't hurt you.

This retreat works because you encounter Agape (brotherly love). You also have time to listen, to turn off the noise of the world because there are no phones, tv or internet. This enables you to pray, to encounter the love, mercy and forgiveness of God.

You need to come, I just took another atheist buddy of mine on the last retreat in June. It is so wonderful to see the transformation. I promise you will relate to how George Bailey felt when you leave. You see all the blessings you have been given. It is Awesome!




Boy, it sure is remarkable how many atheist friends you have who agree to this and are completely changed by three days of an appeal to emotion.
BusterAg
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Woody2006 said:

Personally, I think monogamy is unnatural and various peoples have been coerced via religion or culture to embrace it. Perhaps it means a greater percentage of men in aggregate are able to find a woman to have sex with him, but it violates our very nature.

I'm not saying sleeping around is deeply satisfying or a particularly positive trait in someone. Sure is fun though.


We also desire an endless supply of ice cream. That doesnt mean that much ice cream is good for us.

Look, there is no invention that has done as much good for working families aggregating wealth as the nuclear family has. Sure, sleeping around is fun, but it leads to subpar life results.

So I disagree with your argument that monogamy is unnatural. If we always listened to our id, the world would suck.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
AGC
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Texaggie7nine said:

Very, very, very few people will date for well over a year without living together or having sex. That's just a pipe dream. I don't care what their religious beliefs are.


So what? That doesn't make it a good decision or prudent. And going back to the OP it undermines something that brings stability and produces the best outcomes for children.
Zobel
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Define natural?
Texaggie7nine
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AGC said:

Texaggie7nine said:

Very, very, very few people will date for well over a year without living together or having sex. That's just a pipe dream. I don't care what their religious beliefs are.


So what? That doesn't make it a good decision or prudent. And going back to the OP it undermines something that brings stability and produces the best outcomes for children.
There is no conclusive evidence of that if you control for religious/community standards and age. If people believe that their god and their community will shame them if they get a divorce, they are less likely to. That doesn't make it a good thing.

Show me a study of non religious people comparing ones that remain virgins and do not live together until marriage vs ones that do.
7nine
Frok
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Aggrad08 said:

Frok said:

Aggrad08 said:

How is this different than being selective during a non-cohabitating dating process?


The big difference is you aren't having sex. That's not to say that ended relationships can't have a harmful effect on people that weren't sexual. But it's much easier to recover from a relationship where you weren't sleeping and living together.



And it's much easier to walk away when you are sleeping and living together than when you are married and have kids. Doesn't the same reasoning apply



This is true and I do think that is why most do it.

The bottom line is failed marriages and divorce have made people more afraid of committing to a relationship. It's a shame because marriage done in the purest form is a beautiful thing.

booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:


Boy, it sure is remarkable how many atheist friends you have who agree to this and are completely changed by three days of an appeal to emotion.
Yep it is true. They encounter the real Love of God and neighbor (brothers in christ). The get to experience the way the truth and life! I have seen nearly 800 men on these retreats and they work! Men of all races and classes, encounter Jesus.

It is easy for me, I just make the introduction and let Jesus do the rest.

These atheists are friends of mine. They know me, they trust me. They were ready to try something they thought was wrong (they were atheist) But also they were struggling, they were not happy, they were ready for a change. They were ready to listen. they were ready to give up a weekend and give up their phone.

One atheist was very successful CEO executive in 60s ( had money and success but shattered family behind him, guilt on how he was living his life) and the other was a young kid in his twenties, trying to make his way to the truth.
booboo91
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Texaggie7nine said:

Very, very, very few people will date for well over a year without living together or having sex. That's just a pipe dream. I don't care what their religious beliefs are.
Agree with you today, because the world today says- have sex all the time. Prime time shows are all about sex. Have affairs, do whatever you want! Yeah Me, ME, ME, ME it is ALL about ME!

But 80 years ago not so much. Folks still had out of wedlock sex but much smaller numbers because society was against it. Frank Sinatra was arrested for sleeping with married woman.

booboo91
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Texaggie7nine said:

Very, very, very few people will date for well over a year without living together or having sex. That's just a pipe dream. I don't care what their religious beliefs are.
Sex is a very powerful and wonderful gift from God.

The problem today is we do not know right from wrong. We do not know how to use this powerful gift and thus we get into major major problems as a society. Porn, Abortion, Divorce, No Fathers teaching children, drop out of school, drug use, prison, not productive in society, live at home with mom, turn away from God- Atheist.

It is like the school shooting probem today. 50 years ago kids brought guns (back of pick up trucks) and knives (boy scouts) to school. We knew their purpose, we knew right from wrong. Today not so much.
 
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