How could a God perfectly exemplify love....

1,225 Views | 14 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by DirtDiver
BusterAg
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AG
...without dying for the benefit of his created.

That is what I don't get about the people making the substitution arguments, how that it is central to Christianity, and how it is barbaric.

I just don't agree with that sentiment at all.

Speculation, but I think it more likely that Jesus chose to die on the cross to save us from our sins, not so much because God demanded justice, but because we suck, and we wouldn't get the message that love is everything without that type of unselfish display of love, so we would never understand the nature of sin without that action.
Pro Sandy
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Is the death of Jesus just a symbol of Love? Just an image of what He would be willing to do?

What did the death of Jesus accomplish and how?
Star Wars Memes Only
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Why does death perfectly exemplify love? If you're going to just resurrect yourself, can it really be called death?
Aggie4Life02
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AG
Jesus was the only way to be a substitute for his people.

1) He is human, so he could be a substitute for them,

2) He is sinless, so that he didn't need a substitute for himself,

3) He, as God, is infinite, so he could be a substitute for all of his brethren.
booboo91
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dargscisyhp said:

Why does death perfectly exemplify love? If you're going to just resurrect yourself, can it really be called death?
1) Love can be defined as willing the good of the other, wanting what is best for others. Also love can be defined as giving oneself away to others. We can give up our time, money, talents, but the highest thing we can give away is our life.

2) John 15:13- There is no greater love than this, to lay one's life down for one's friends. We all can recognize the Love a soldier has when he dies for others, when he jumps on a grenade to save others. When he willingly, knowingly dies for others.

I had few buddies in the Corps who died in the war, they also knew people were in harms way, they knew the mission was very dangerous and yet they went in to save others. They gave up their life (years, decades of their life), the time from their wife and children to save others. The fact they may be in Heaven, in paradise does not negate the sacrifice they made. the love they showed others.

3) Jesus knowingly went to his death, a death he wanted to avoid, he was tortured, mocked, spit on, naked, made a crimminal and then died a very painful death. And then the entire time he is thinking of others, not self.

Jesus death can be viewed the perfect act of love, because he knowingly gave up everything the world says we should strive for (fame, pride, honor, money, pleasure, sex) for the Love other others and the father

ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

Why does death perfectly exemplify love? If you're going to just resurrect yourself, can it really be called death?
Does knowledge of resurrection make death less meaningful? If so, you'd have to say that the deaths of Christian martyrs throughout history don't count for the same reason. Then you get into a whole argument about the relative values of life and death of different peoples, and that's scary territory.

I've also made the argument that in addition to His suffering and death we also have to look at what Jesus could have done with the rest of his life. If you believe His claims, His wisdom, and the reports of His miracles, He could have created as close to Paradise on Earth as we can get with fallible humans. So God sacrificed that temporary Paradise in which death still exists for the possibility of eternal fellowship with us.

From that perspective, all the unnecessary suffering since the life of Jesus is part of this same sacrifice, as a ruling, earthly Christ could have prevented it. So if not answering the whole question of suffering, we can answer part of it? Why is there still suffering since the time of Jesus? Because suffering is temporary, and God's love and desire for fellowship is eternal.
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Zobel
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He says He is the Good Shepherd. He did it because we needed Him to do it. I think the mechanics of it and unwinding the whole thing is where you start to find traps of logic. Is death nasty? Yes...but so is birth.

I think your last sentence is totally true about the sacrifices of the old covenant. We as humans needed those to even begin to understand the cross.

I am thinking...Orthodox worship. You go to church and you stand and bow and prostrate on your face and cross yourself a million times, and your feet hurt and you're sleepy, and you're tearing up in contrition, and then you're joyful, and then annoyed at yourself for zoning out for a second. There's kids being cute and distracting, and also a baby crying and being distracting, maybe. People moving around. And you chew and eat and drink and then afterward you go have a meal with your Church family. It's messy. Life is messy, from beginning to end.

The amazing thing is that He loved us so much that He would step into this messiness, even the messiest nastiest parts.

I was talking to my godfather the other day about this subject in particular and he related a story to me about a Protestant woman who was given a small crucifix necklace by a Roman Catholic friend. She wore it, but inside-out because she said she believed in Christ resurrected, not Christ crucified. The cross and the resurrection have to be viewed as one, just like Christ's incarnation, death, resurrrectjon, and second coming are one. On the darkest parts of Holy Thursday / Good Friday we sing about the Resurrection, and on Pascha we sing about the cross. Our hymn is "Before Thy Cross, we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy resurrection, we glorify."

All of these metaphors for the cross and how it did what it did are just metaphors. We have to look at the whole thing, as one continuous action that we even participate in, in a real way. It has to be holistic. If the soteriology theory doesn't require the incarnation, AND the cross, AND the resurrection, AND the judgment, in a uniform and united way.. it isn't right.

...sorry to ramble.
dds08
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dargscisyhp said:

Why does death perfectly exemplify love? If you're going to just resurrect yourself, can it really be called death?
The shedding of blood.

Humans have yet to figure out how to make blood.

It's not so much the fact that blood was shed, but the fact that innocent, sinless blood was shed.

Show me how to make innocent, sinless blood.
Athanasius
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God IS Love.

The Trinity, from eternity, already exemplifies.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Communion of Love.

This answers Einstein's question of (paraphrased from memory) 'whether God, who is Love, had a choice in making us, since love needs an object.'

No, He didn't need to make us. He did it out of an outpouring, an overflow, an abundance.

Thanks be to God.

PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

Why does death perfectly exemplify love?
Because it is the greatest price one can pay to save others. If someone says they love you, but are unwilling to even give up their Saturday to help you, or turn a blind eye when you suffer, then can you really believe that they love you. But if someone is willing to go so far as to give up their life for you, then you know that they truly loved you. It's the greatest expression of love because it's the furthest someone can go for your benefit. It is putting the needs of someone else over every need you have, even the "need" to live. It's a total subjugation of one's own needs for the betterment of others.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

God IS Love.

The Trinity, from eternity, already exemplifies.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Communion of Love.

This answers Einstein's question of (paraphrased from memory) 'whether God, who is Love, had a choice in making us, since love needs an object.'

No, He didn't need to make us. He did it out of an outpouring, an overflow, an abundance.

Thanks be to God.
No disagreement with anything you posted, but I would add wrinkle. Does God's love require an object that may or may not love Him back? God's love for Himself is evident and necessary. However, even Jesus said it is greater to love those who hate you than those who love you. So if God only loves Himself, then His true potential for love is not fully realized, and it can't be until He loves something that doesn't love Him back. In other words, unless He creates humans with the free will to not love Him, then His love is incomplete
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Athanasius
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

God IS Love.

The Trinity, from eternity, already exemplifies.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Communion of Love.

This answers Einstein's question of (paraphrased from memory) 'whether God, who is Love, had a choice in making us, since love needs an object.'

No, He didn't need to make us. He did it out of an outpouring, an overflow, an abundance.

Thanks be to God.
No disagreement with anything you posted, but I would add wrinkle. Does God's love require an object that may or may not love Him back? God's love for Himself is evident and necessary. However, even Jesus said it is greater to love those who hate you than those who love you. So if God only loves Himself, then His true potential for love is not fully realized, and it can't be until He loves something that doesn't love Him back. In other words, unless He creates humans with the free will to not love Him, then His love is incomplete


God is three persons. The love has an object.
BusterAg
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dargscisyhp said:

Why does death perfectly exemplify love? If you're going to just resurrect yourself, can it really be called death?


This only works if you trust your own teachings, for what it's worth.
In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
kurt vonnegut
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

Why does death perfectly exemplify love?
Because it is the greatest price one can pay to save others. If someone says they love you, but are unwilling to even give up their Saturday to help you, or turn a blind eye when you suffer, then can you really believe that they love you. But if someone is willing to go so far as to give up their life for you, then you know that they truly loved you. It's the greatest expression of love because it's the furthest someone can go for your benefit. It is putting the needs of someone else over every need you have, even the "need" to live. It's a total subjugation of one's own needs for the betterment of others.
You cut out darg's second sentence: If you're going to just resurrect yourself, can it really be called death?

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think the point may have been that the resurrection and ascension into Heaven almost seems to minimize the sacrifice. At least from an outside perspective. It feels like an alcoholic who loves his family and decides to sacrifice booze for three days to show them how much he loves them.
Zobel
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I think your point summarizes why looking at the cross in isolation is unsatisfactory.

The whole thing is one image - the incarnation, the cross, the resurrection, ascension and the eventual second coming. No one part really stands alone.
DirtDiver
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7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

I think we dismiss the love of God all too often because of how much we are oblivious to the wrath of God.

Think about your worst enemy and then think about inviting that person to live in your house or giving them your most treasured possession. The more you can picture the more you can see how God's love becomes distinguished from ours.
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