tehmackdaddy said:

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agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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I don't believe He did change it. I mean, outside of saying He was going to change it and then changing it.

But as it seems you would agree, once He called it He is going to go through with it.

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Therefore, He did not change the Torah, for that would be sin.

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I agree that He didn't change the Torah, He just superseded it.

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Yet, not one place did the Messiah ever teach this. Not one place do the prophets before ever teach this. In fact, the Torah itself says it cannot be change. Superseding is changing.

This post isn't supposed to turn to this, but you guys have turned into something that many profess they don't want to talk about.

Matthew 5:17-20 New International Version (NIV)

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

hth

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This post isn't supposed to turn to this, but you guys have turned into something that many profess they don't want to talk about.

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This is a very odd response to a comment on Jesus and the Torah, on a thread titled "Did Jesus follow/observe the Torah?"

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I seem to recall that story Jesus told about a sheep having unexpectedly fallen into a pit on the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:1 - 13) But the issue at hand was about healing a man on the Sabbath. Jesus even went on further to say "How much more valuable a man is to sheep!"


Now we both know about the story where a guy was put to death for being caught picking up wood on the Sabbath. The Lord said he was to be put to death.
(Numbers 15:32-36)


I'd like to give you a simple "yes/no" answer, but cannot other than, God is Sovereign.

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Their are provisions in the Torah about life. This was not a new teaching.

Leviticus 18:5 - You shall observe My statutes and My ordinances, which a man shall do and live by them. I am the Lord.

The Talmud (Yoma 82a) teaches "There is nothing that stands before saving a life, other than idolatry, adultery and murder."

Note that adultery and idolatry is the same word in Hebrew. They are effectively the same thing to God. For if you commit adultery against Him, it is idolatry.

The Talmud also says in Sanhedrin 74a, Yoma 82a & b, Shabbat 30b that "It is better to break the Torah law, rather than be killed,"

Rambam said "It is forbidden to hesitate before transgressing the Shabbat for a sick person who is dangerously ill, as it says, 'Which a person must do and live by them,' you should live by them and not die by them."

There is a true story of a Rabbi in Russia, during the 1800's, who heard on Yom Kippur that a woman had a baby. The husband had died. During the Yom Kippur (Greatest festival) service the Rabbi left. His students went looking for him. After a while they found him at the woman's house cutting wood. They asked him, "what are you doing?". He said this woman had a baby and it is cold out here. The baby could die if not kept warm, so I am cutting wood to make sure the woman and baby has enough wood to keep warm.

So, this is why Yeshua made the statement about saving a life. He knew they knew the answer.

dds08 said:

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Matthew 5:17-20 New International Version (NIV)

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

hth

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V17 is a Jewish idiom. Abolished means misinterpret while fulfill means properly interpret.

He continued saying not the smallest letter or mark will disappear from the Torah until heaven and earth disappear.

Also, continued saying therefore, anyone who sets aside a commandment or teaches other to do so will be called least in the kingdom.

After v20, what does the Messiah do? He interprets many things....you have heard it said.


Later in His ministry the rich young ruler asked, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18).

Yeshua responded v20: You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

Young guy responds: The man said, "All these I have kept since my youth."

When Yeshua heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack. Sell all, as much as you have, and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me." 23 But upon hearing these things, he became deeply distressed, for he was very rich.


Why did Yeshua tell this guy this? He may have been keeping the commandments to the letter of the law, but he lacked true compassion for his fellow man. This is the real intent of the commandments - love and compassion - or in Hebrew chesed - loving kindness.

Yep. My thoughts exactly. There's a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. It's possible to follow the law to a "T" and completely miss the spirit of it.

That's why I mentioned Galatians 5 in a previous post. If you love the Lord, you obey, trust, and have faith in Him.

dds08 said:

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Yep. My thoughts exactly. There's a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. It's possible to follow the law to a "T" and completely miss the spirit of it.

That's why I mentioned Galatians 5 in a previous post. If you love the Lord, you obey, trust, and have faith in Him.

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That doesn't give permission to not follow Torah....you said...obey. Obey His wisdom, His commandments.

Following Torah is love: Now this is love: that we walk according to His commands. 2 John 1:6

Legalism.

Jesus debunked this with the Good Samaritan story and his talk with Nicodemus.

He did it in action too; by dying on the cross:

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Deuteronomy 21:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
Various Laws
22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

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Galatians 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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Never mind. I've stated my points already. No need to rehash.

dds08 said:

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Legalism.

Jesus debunked this with the Good Samaritan story and his talk with Nicodemus.

He did it in action too; by dying on the cross:

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Deuteronomy 21:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
Various Laws
22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

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Galatians 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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"Legalism" - Remember Yeshua is one who said to the man who asked how to inherit eternal life, to follow the commandments. This is of course someone who was in covenant with already.

I want to understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that the curse of the law, the conditions of breaking the law, the penalty of breaking the Torah, are the same as the Torah/law itself?

agie95 said:

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dds08 said:

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Legalism.

Jesus debunked this with the Good Samaritan story and his talk with Nicodemus.

He did it in action too; by dying on the cross:

Quote:

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Deuteronomy 21:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
Various Laws
22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

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Galatians 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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"Legalism" - Remember Yeshua is one who said to the man who asked how to inherit eternal life, to follow the commandments. This is of course someone who was in covenant with already.

I want to understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that the curse of the law, the conditions of breaking the law, the penalty of breaking the Torah, are the same as the Torah/law itself?

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And the rich young ruler followed all the commandments and still didn't inherit eternal life.

This thread.

This thread reminds me of The Magicians Nephew. The part where Digory and Polly visited Charn.

The inscription on the bell didn't seem to have much of an effect on Polly.

But Digory sure let the magic of that writing work a number on him.

Moral of the story: consider the alternatives, walk away or don't read.

One,you don't know if he inherited internal life or not. Two, they are to be on your heart (Deuteronomy 6:6). That you will cling to His ways, which is to have loving kindness. Three, we are actually commanded to have joy and goodness of heart in following the commandments - "Instead of serving Adonai your God with joy and goodness of heart, out of the abundance of everything," Deuteronomy 28:47

So you can say he followed them, but Yeshua was pointing out to him that he really wasn't following them.

In other words, you position doesn't hold water and therefore you are going to deflect.

agie95 said:

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In other words, you position doesn't hold water and therefore you are going to deflect.

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Or you make it clear that you don't actually have a desire for meaningful discussion, but instead just want to preach and accuse.

Spike that football

agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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I don't believe He did change it. I mean, outside of saying He was going to change it and then changing it.

But as it seems you would agree, once He called it He is going to go through with it.

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Therefore, He did not change the Torah, for that would be sin.

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I agree that He didn't change the Torah, He just superseded it.

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Yet, not one place did the Messiah ever teach this. Not one place do the prophets before ever teach this. In fact, the Torah itself says it cannot be change. Superseding is changing.

This post isn't supposed to turn to this, but you guys have turned into something that many profess they don't want to talk about.

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This is the part where I post the Scripture that supports my position and you reply with, "nuh-uh".

Christ lived according to the Torah because the new covenant wasn't ushered in until after He died and rose from the grave.

Hi i'm agie95 and I am obsessed with the sound of my own voice.

tehmackdaddy said:

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agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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I don't believe He did change it. I mean, outside of saying He was going to change it and then changing it.

But as it seems you would agree, once He called it He is going to go through with it.

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Therefore, He did not change the Torah, for that would be sin.

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I agree that He didn't change the Torah, He just superseded it.

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Yet, not one place did the Messiah ever teach this. Not one place do the prophets before ever teach this. In fact, the Torah itself says it cannot be change. Superseding is changing.

This post isn't supposed to turn to this, but you guys have turned into something that many profess they don't want to talk about.

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This is the part where I post the Scripture that supports my position and you reply with, "nuh-uh".

Christ lived according to the Torah because the new covenant wasn't ushered in until after He died and rose from the grave.

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Are you sure the new covenant has started?

Where is the teaching that the Torah was "superseded" after His death?

agie95 said:

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Are you sure the new covenant has started?

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Yes.

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Where is the teaching that the Torah was "superseded" after His death?

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It's all throughout the NT.

S

tehmackdaddy said:

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agie95 said:

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Are you sure the new covenant has started?

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Yes.

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Where is the teaching that the Torah was "superseded" after His death?

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It's all throughout the NT.

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THe covenant thing probably should go on another thread...

So Yeshua taught to follow Torah....until heaven and earth disappear. While the Messiah was here on earth, he never mentioned this dramatic change in how one lives their life that you speak of throughout the NT.

I find that odd. Don't you?

There are verses that show that Paul very much still followed Torah. Jacob, John, Peter as well. We even have external evidence (Josephus) that Jacob observed Torah until his death. We have verses that tell us to follow the Torah:

Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified.

Romans 3:31 - Do we then nullify the Torah through faithfulness? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah.

Romans 7:22-23 - For I delight in the Torah of God with respect to the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts.

Romans 7:25 - So then, with my mind I myself serve the Torah of God; but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin.


James 1:22 - But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding yourselves

James 1:23-24 - For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror 24 for once he looks at himself and goes away, he immediately forgets what sort of person he was.

James 1:25 - But the one who looks intently into the perfect Torah, the Torah that gives freedom, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer who forgets but a doer who actshe shall be blessed in what he does.

James 2:12 - So speak and act as those who will be judged according to the Torah that gives freedom.
Romans 2:12 - and all who have sinned according to Torah will be judged by Torah.

1 Peter 1:15-16 - Instead, just like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in everything you do. 16 For it is written,

"Kedoshim (holy) you shall be, for I am kadosh (holy)."

Leviticus 11, 19, and 20 are the only places where we are told to be Holy. Peter is quoting this.

Revelation 12:17 - So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspringthose who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua.

The book of John and his epistles speak over and over again about following the commandments.

tehmackdaddy said:

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None of those verses - in absolutely ZERO of the Epistles - will you find a command from the author to the audience to follow Torah.

Isn't that striking to you?

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I think it is suprising that you expect one. Didn't God already command to do so? Yeshua's message was to repent....return back to God's ways.

Each one of those verses do speak about following the Torah.

agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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None of those verses - in absolutely ZERO of the Epistles - will you find a command from the author to the audience to follow Torah.

Isn't that striking to you?

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I think it is suprising that you expect one. Didn't God already command to do so? Yeshua's message was to repent....return back to God's ways.

Each one of those verses do speak about following the Torah.

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And yet you are left with nothing.

Following Torah was SO important it was mentioned exactly zero times.

Think about that.

Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified.


Not the people who read the Torah.....but those who actually do it will be justified. Sounds like saying do it to me.


Romans 3:31 - Do we then nullify the Torah through faithfulness? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah.

Paul says we should uphold the Torah. That is the same as doing it.


Romans 7:22-23 - For I delight in the Torah of God with respect to the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts.
Romans 7:25 - So then, with my mind I myself serve the Torah of God; but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin.

My flesh serve's the law of sin, but the spirit the Torah of God!!!

James 1:22 - But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding yourselves

Same as above, don't just read/listen to the Torah...do it!


James 1:23-24 - For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror 24 for once he looks at himself and goes away, he immediately forgets what sort of person he was.

Same as above.


James 1:25 - But the one who looks intently into the perfect Torah, the Torah that gives freedom, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts he shall be blessed in what he does.

The Torah gives freedom, whoever continues in it will be blessed.


James 2:12 - So speak and act as those who will be judged according to the Torah that gives freedom.
Romans 2:12 - and all who have sinned according to Torah will be judged by Torah.

Do as one who is going to be judged by the Torah....in other words do it!


1 Peter 1:15-16 - Instead, just like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in everything you do. 16 For it is written,

"Kedoshim (holy) you shall be, for I am kadosh (holy)."

Leviticus 11, 19, and 20 are the only places where we are told to be Holy. Peter is quoting this.

How is one to be holy? Set apart? By following the Torah as Peter is clearly alluding to here.

Revelation 12:17 - So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua.

The commandments of God....and Yeshua.


The book of John and his epistles speak over and over again about following the commandments.

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:15

He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. He who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him." John 14:21


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10

Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

Everyone practicing sin also practices lawlessnessindeed, sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

Loved ones, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing in His sight. 1 John 3:21-22

We know that we love God's children by thiswhen we love God and obey His commandments. 3 For this is the love of Godthat we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2-3

I was overjoyed to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we received as a commandment from the Father. 2 John 1:4

Walking in truth is equated with commandments just like in Psalm 119:142, 151, 160.



To say that walking out Torah was mentioned zero times is false - as again posted the verses with some additional ones. Telling people to be doers and to follow the commandments is the same as walking out Torah.