Do you think Yeshua/Jesus followed/observed Torah? Why or why not?

It is a pretty simple question.

One person said, indirectly, that He did not follow Torah and was a sinner.

dds08 said:

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Here we go again.

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To be honest, I think we should all be cool with repeated questions. People are all at different points in their journey towards truth.

If answering bothers you, then link to the former thread... don't just say 'here we go again' or whatever.

agie95 said:

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It is a pretty simple question.

One person said, indirectly, that He did not follow Torah and was a sinner.

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Who said that? I was simply referring to the book of Mark that states "He declared all foods clean". I certainly don't think He was a sinner. Is it your position that the book of Mark states that Christ was a sinner?

I find it more fruitful to ask "MUST Jesus have followed any laws to be holy?"

Clearly not. He is God. He IS Holy.

So, we look at his actions and then ask 'Why did he follow any laws and prescriptions (which he did)." Why did he change many? Did he fulfill the old law (which was made to prepare His people)? Why did He get baptized?"

RetiredAg said:

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agie95 said:

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It is a pretty simple question.

One person said, indirectly, that He did not follow Torah and was a sinner.

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Who said that? I was simply referring to the book of Mark that states "He declared all foods clean". I certainly don't think He was a sinner. Is it your position that the book of Mark states that Christ was a sinner?

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God forbid! I believe He followed the Torah perfectly.

You on the other hand, believe that He sinned. For subtracting from the commandments is a sin.

Deuteronomy 4:2 - You must not add to the word that I am commanding you or take away from itin order to keep the mitzvot of Adonai your God that I am commanding you

Deuteronomy 13:1 (12:32) - "Whatever I command you, you must take care to doyou are not to add to it or take away from it.

tehmackdaddy said:

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He said, "YOU must not" not "I must not".

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So, He can change the rules all He wants? Not hard to live a sinless life when you have that ability.

What's to say He doesn't change another commandment? Or the way to salvation.....

This thought you posted is a bit of a problem.

RetiredAg said:

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You on the other hand, believe that He sinned.

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What on earth are you talking about? I simply quoted the book of Mark when it states "Thus He declared all foods clean". If you take that as me claiming He sinned, then your issue is with the book of Mark, not me. Even Christ Himself said that there "is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him". It was after saying this that Mark mentioned "He declared all foods clean".

So, please do not begin to tell me that I believe Christ sinned, especially given I'm doing nothing more than offering up the text from Mark. Your issue isn't with me, as I believe Christ was absolutely sinless.

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You know that is not what the Greek says, the translators put their personal spin on it. You know that subtracting from the commandments is a sin. So, if you believe that He did subtract from the commandments, then you believe He sinned.


Two quick points as to why I can prove without a doubt that He didn't say, all foods are clean, at least in the way you and many other Christians think so.

1. If Yeshua who told these certain Pharisees that they were wrong by setting aside a commandment (v9), and then set aside a commandment (Kosher laws), then He would be a hypocrite.

2. Approx. 10 years later Peter in his vision, not only says he has never eaten anything unkosher or common, he is still using the words unkosher and common. Maybe the joke was on Peter. They kept this secret from him for 10 years.

agie95 said:

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It is a pretty simple question.

One person said, indirectly, that He did not follow Torah and was a sinner.

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This comment right here, though, is a great indicator that the OP has absolutely no desire to have a real discussion. A scripture reference was provided that explicitly states that Christ declared all foods clean, just after Christ talked about how it's not the things that we put in our bodies that defile us, and the OP responds with the accusation that I believe Christ is a sinner. Instead of addressing the post, the OP hurls inflammatory accusations that will immediately shut off any constructive dialogue.

agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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He said, "YOU must not" not "I must not".

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So, He can change the rules all He wants? Not hard to live a sinless life when you have that ability.

What's to say He doesn't change another commandment? Or the way to salvation.....

This thought you posted is a bit of a problem.

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Are you saying God cannot do what He wants?

What power is this that you can restrict The Almighty?

Quote:

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2. Approx. 10 years later Peter in his vision, not only says he has never eaten anything unkosher or common, he is still using the words unkosher and common. Maybe the joke was on Peter. They kept this secret from him for 10 years.

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You use the word "prove", but I don't think that word means what you think it means. As we saw with Paul and Titus, Jewish converts were still getting circumcised but it was certainly not a requirement for Gentiles.

When Jesus IS God, he can change whatever he pleases.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Heb. 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the Torah as well.

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This has nothing to do with the question. This verse is taken out of context.


Did you Yeshua follow the Torah nor not? Why or why not. It is a simple question.

Grimey said:

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When Jesus IS God, he can change whatever he pleases.

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The Messiah is not God, for one.

Can God grow in wisdom and stature and in favor of God?

Luke 2:52 - And Yeshua kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

tehmackdaddy said:

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agie95 said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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He said, "YOU must not" not "I must not".

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So, He can change the rules all He wants? Not hard to live a sinless life when you have that ability.

What's to say He doesn't change another commandment? Or the way to salvation.....

This thought you posted is a bit of a problem.

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Are you saying God cannot do what He wants?

What power is this that you can restrict The Almighty?

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Get over it. You know that is not what I am saying. If the Bible is the revelation of God, then He is not going to change it.

RetiredAg said:

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Quote:

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2. Approx. 10 years later Peter in his vision, not only says he has never eaten anything unkosher or common, he is still using the words unkosher and common. Maybe the joke was on Peter. They kept this secret from him for 10 years.

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You use the word "prove", but I don't think that word means what you think it means. As we saw with Paul and Titus, Jewish converts were still getting circumcised but it was certainly not a requirement for Gentiles.

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So, you can refute Mark 7, so you move on to something else.

Do you believe He walked Torah or not?

agie95 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Heb. 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the Torah as well.

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This has nothing to do with the question. This verse is taken out of context.


Did you Yeshua follow the Torah nor not? Why or why not. It is a simple question.

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But you don't really want an honest answer to the question, because any disagreement with you results in others being told they don't love God or they think He's a sinner. You would be better off ditching the facade that you want actual discussion, and instead start threads with the explicit guidance that you don't want feedback, but would just prefer to preach at us.

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If the Bible is the revelation of God

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Jesus is the exact revelation of God, above all other revelations. He's not merely one of many revelations. He is what God looks like.

agie95 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Quote:

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2. Approx. 10 years later Peter in his vision, not only says he has never eaten anything unkosher or common, he is still using the words unkosher and common. Maybe the joke was on Peter. They kept this secret from him for 10 years.

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You use the word "prove", but I don't think that word means what you think it means. As we saw with Paul and Titus, Jewish converts were still getting circumcised but it was certainly not a requirement for Gentiles.

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So, you can refute Mark 7, so you move on to something else.

Do you believe He walked Torah or not?

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Mark 7 says what it does. As Christ said, nothing we put in our bodies can defile us. No amount of bacon will defile us, but the arrogance, pride, contemptuous words, etc that you bring to the table do. Those stem from the heart. Those were His words. I am not moving on, but simply pointing to another example.

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Get over it. You know that is not what I am saying.

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The irony and hypocrisy here is rich. Just like you knew I wasn't saying I believe Christ sinned by referencing Mark 7.

agie95 said:

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Grimey said:

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When Jesus IS God, he can change whatever he pleases.

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The Messiah is not God, for one.

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If you are truly trying to open peoples' eyes to (your interpretation of) scriptural truth, THIS IS WHERE YOU START. What is the use of railing on side issues (is Law-following neccesary for obedience) when this most fundamental fact is different?

"The rules of Leviticus are still in play, you should observe them! Oh by the way your entire concept about the nature of God is wrong."

agie95 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Heb. 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the Torah as well.

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This has nothing to do with the question. This verse is taken out of context.


Did you Yeshua follow the Torah nor not? Why or why not. It is a simple question.

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Can Torah change or not? Simple question.

If anyone really wants to know what "laws" Jesus is under, go read all of Galatians 5. Once you read about the fruit of the Holy Spirit you will realize that Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, etc. are laws (per se). They are laws, but not laws at the same time. The best way I can describe it is, those things are the culmination of freedom and love; love and freedom coalesce. They are not like laws in that they are limitless and have no bounds.

Now.

Knowing all that, how hollow it would be for Jesus to come to Earth and try to live under the law of Moses. Which I certainly know, without a doubt, he could.

For one, cursed is the man who is hung on a tree. Well, I guess the cross is out.

Love and obedience (to the Heavenly Father) told Him, Jesus, I need to sacrifice myself for this doomed human race.

deflect, deflect, deflect

RetiredAg said:

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agie95 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Quote:

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2. Approx. 10 years later Peter in his vision, not only says he has never eaten anything unkosher or common, he is still using the words unkosher and common. Maybe the joke was on Peter. They kept this secret from him for 10 years.

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You use the word "prove", but I don't think that word means what you think it means. As we saw with Paul and Titus, Jewish converts were still getting circumcised but it was certainly not a requirement for Gentiles.

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So, you can refute Mark 7, so you move on to something else.

Do you believe He walked Torah or not?

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Mark 7 says what it does. As Christ said, nothing we put in our bodies can defile us. No amount of bacon will defile us, but the arrogance, pride, contemptuous words, etc that you bring to the table do. Those stem from the heart. Those were His words. I am not moving on, but simply pointing to another example.

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That is not what Mark 7 says. If you do, then you believe He sinned.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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agie95 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Heb. 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the Torah as well.

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This has nothing to do with the question. This verse is taken out of context.


Did you Yeshua follow the Torah nor not? Why or why not. It is a simple question.

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Can Torah change or not? Simple question.

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Start your own thread.

dds08 said:

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If anyone really wants to know what "laws" Jesus is under, go read all of Galatians 5. Once you read about the fruit of the Holy Spirit you will realize that Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, etc. are laws (per se). They are laws, but not laws at the same time. The best way I can describe it is, those things are the culmination of freedom and love; love and freedom coalesce. They are not like laws in that they are limitless and have no bounds.

Now.

Knowing all that, how hollow it would be for Jesus to come to Earth and try to live under the law of Moses. Which I certainly know, without a doubt, he could.

For one, cursed is the man who is hung on a tree. Well, I guess the cross is out.

Love and obedience (to the Heavenly Father) told Him, Jesus, I need to sacrifice myself for this doomed human race.

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You are not answering the question. Did He follow the Torah?

By the way, love joy peace patience, etc are all commandments.