God's Case for Eternal Security
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Jas. 6:4-6).
Those who believe you can fall from grace (lose salvation once you are saved) often put forth that the above Scripture proves their case. They say the words "if they shall fall away" teaches there is the possibility of being saved, then falling away from salvation because of sinfulness. Yet, if the phrase, "if they shall fall away," proves the case that salvation can be lost through sinfulness once one is under the grace of God through Christ's shed blood on the cross of Calvary, how, then, can the person who falls away be restored through repentance? They ignore this Scripture's plain teaching that no one could, if he fell from grace, come back into the salvation fold. These same people usually believe in God's forgiveness of sin and that a sinner can be restored to the point of being resaved. Their use of this scripture to make their point that one can lose their salvation, therefore, makes no sense.
What Hebrews 6: 4-6 teaches, of course, is that it is impossible to lose your salvation. The thing that must be considered here is whether one, if he then lives in sin, without any desire to repent, was ever a born-again believer. Paul wrote, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid" (Rom. 6:1-2). Eternal security is not license to sin without severe consequences. God will discipline His children. In some cases, the heavenly Father will call home His disobedient children who will not heed His corrective measures. The Bible truth about those who claim to be "Christians," yet who live "like the devil" with seemingly no consequences is: they are probably the children of another father the Devil.
John, the great apostle, through divine inspiration, spoke to this Bible truth:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would (no doubt) have continued with us: but (they went out), that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 Jn. 2:19).
God's Unbreakable Seal
Almighty God holds the saved within His all-powerful hand, Jesus said. It is stronger than any lamination process that could ever be devised. God's seal cannot be broken under any circumstances. Paul wrote about Jesus and those who truly believe in Him for their salvation:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
Paul wrote that a believer should strive never to disappoint or grieve God. But in the next thought he assures that the believer is eternally secure, no matter what:
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Eph. 4:30).
Christians Sin
The Lord explained, through John, the relationship of the born-again child of God to his or her heavenly Father when it comes to the matter of sin:
"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn. 1:6-9).
Some claim that once saved, a person can live in sinless perfection. Let's see what God says about this:
"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn. 1:10-2:4).
When Jesus Prays
When the Lord Jesus prays, the heavenly Father ALWAYS grants His Son's prayer. Jesus prayed for the children of God all children past, present, and future, saved through Christ's precious shed blood:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in themNeither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them (Jn. 17: 9-10; 20-26).
Paul wrote extensively about his own sinfulness and he meant the sin he committed after his Damascus Road experience. He was saved, yet sinned, much to his sorrowful remorse. Read Romans 7, beginning with verse 14. He then wrote the following, telling us that we live above sin because we are seen by the heavenly Father through Christ Jesus, not through our flesh:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after
the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Rom. 8:1-17).
Jesus is the One who makes us free. If we are free in Him, we are free indeed! Eternally!

-Terry James

I've heard compelling arguments for both perspectives. I think it's simply climbing up the same mountain, but from different sides. For example, someone embraces Christ at 18, gets baptized, but in their late-20's they leave the faith. One side would say that he was never truly "saved" at 18. One side would say he lost his salvation when he left the faith in his late-20's. Same destination, just different paths (arguments) to get there.

k2aggie07 said:

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Find me a pre-Reformation source for this doctrine and we can inquire as to whether it is Apostolic or not.

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This is actually a really good way to approach questions like this. Just picking prominent names here, but if Spurgeon and Ignatius of Antioch were in conflict, who should we listen to? Should we not at least give greater initial credibility to Ignatius?

RetiredAg said:

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I've heard compelling arguments for both perspectives. I think it's simply climbing up the same mountain, but from different sides. For example, someone embraces Christ at 18, gets baptized, but in their late-20's they leave the faith. One side would say that he was never truly "saved" at 18. One side would say he lost his salvation when he left the faith in his late-20's. Same destination, just different paths (arguments) to get there.

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I think the first one is the only tenable one. How can a man justified by God become unjustified? Of course, the 18 year old fooled himself into thinking he was "once saved" in the first place. I think how it's framed leads to false confidence. Pray a prayer and you can do anything you want is not how the Bible frames it: How can we who died to sin still live in it?

k2, Augustine wrote on it in De Dono Perseverantiae.

Hm, can you quote specifically? St Augustine writes

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Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift [of perseverance] so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered?

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and

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But, lest perchance it be said that perseverance even to the end is not indeed lost when it has once been given --that is, when a man has persevered unto the end -- but that it is lost, in some sense, when a man by contumacy so acts that he is not able to attain to it; just as we say that a man who has not persevered unto the end has lost eternal life or the kingdom of God, not because he had already received and actually had it, but because he would have received and had it if he had persevered -- let us lay aside controversies of words, and say that some things even which are not possessed, but are hoped to be possessed, may be lost.

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and

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But, on the other hand, "of his own will a man forsakes God, so as to be deservedly forsaken by God." Who would deny this? But it is for that reason we ask not to be led into temptation, so that this may not happen.

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Anyway his polemics against Pelagius weren't even universally accepted in his own time.

k2aggie07 said:

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Hm, can you quote specifically? St Augustine writes

Quote:

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Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift [of perseverance] so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered?

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and

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But, lest perchance it be said that perseverance even to the end is not indeed lost when it has once been given --that is, when a man has persevered unto the end -- but that it is lost, in some sense, when a man by contumacy so acts that he is not able to attain to it; just as we say that a man who has not persevered unto the end has lost eternal life or the kingdom of God, not because he had already received and actually had it, but because he would have received and had it if he had persevered -- let us lay aside controversies of words, and say that some things even which are not possessed, but are hoped to be possessed, may be lost.

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and

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But, on the other hand, "of his own will a man forsakes God, so as to be deservedly forsaken by God." Who would deny this? But it is for that reason we ask not to be led into temptation, so that this may not happen.

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Anyway his polemics against Pelagius weren't even universally accepted in his own time.

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Those quotes are fine. It shows a man may deceived into thinking he has something that he does not. It's a matter of how a person determines if they are in a state of grace. But can somebody written in the book of life be erased?

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That is not done yet, so my salvation is not worked out yet.

I am not saved; I am being saved.

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What starts the process? Is it possible to abort the process once it begins?

One is saved or they are not saved. Very dangerous territory.

It could be argued that everyone is saved; they have only to acknowledge it.

They can acknowledge it at one point, then reject it at a later point.

One of my favorite Priests explained in a Homily, "You can travel your entire life facing God and traveling toward him but turn away at that last moment and be lost. You can also travel your entire life away from God and then turn to him at that last moment and be saved. It is not your distance from God at your death that is important, but rather it is whether you are facing toward him or away from him."

We can change directions many times throughout our lives.

Dangerous why?

I think once saved always saved is way more dangerous of a teaching.

Baptism, confession, repentance.

What finishes the process?

When can you say "I have achieved all of the scriptural promises of salvation?" or "I have grown up to the full measure of Christ?"

k2aggie07 said:

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Baptism, confession, repentance.

What finishes the process?

When can you say "I have achieved all of the scriptural promises of salvation?" or "I have grown up to the full measure of Christ?"

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What happens if you die today while you're still in the process of being saved?

I die, and I go before the dread judgment seat of Christ same as everyone else.

I've written what I understand to be the Orthodox position on this before.

Quoting myself:

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We are saved because of who we are/are becoming / will become, and we are saved because of who Christ is. Both of those things are both a result of and a cause of specific actions, and this loop is what salvation is.

St Paul demonstrates this in his various uses of the verb "to save". He says it past tense (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5), present tense (1 Cor 1:18, 15:2), future tense (Rom 5:10), and the final verdict of justification at the judgment (Rom 2:13,16).

It's a dynamic, and to focus on any particular part to the exclusion of the other is an error. Doing this does not deny that the work of salvation belongs completely and wholly to God, that through Christ and the Holy Spirit we are saved, justified, forgiven, sanctified, enlightened.

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In another place:

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A person cannot work their way into salvation alone. However, we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" by striving with his grace to persevere and obtain our salvation. "We are God's fellow-workers" (1 Corinthians 3:9) and we work for the Master while He is away, because He has entrusted His possessions to us (Matthew 25:14).

There are two things a man is saved from -- death, through the general resurrection. And God bestowed this on all mankind when He sent His Son to die for us all. Like we say in our paschal hymn, He trampled down death by death and bestowed life on those in the tombs. Not one will remain in the tomb (cf John 5:28-29) because He truly died for all men (2 Cor 5:15).

But at the Judgment, we will be justified or condemned based on what we said (Matthew 12:37), based on what we did (cf Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 5:3-12, Rev 22:12, Romans 2:6, Matthew 16:26, Jeremiah 17:10, Psalm 62:12, Proverbs 24:12, Ezekiel 18:20, Job 34:11, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Psalm 7:8, John 5:29) etc), that is, truly based on who we are.

And this is the salvation that we work out by grace, to actually become righteous through His ineffable mercy, because if He should mark iniquities who could stand? But with Him there is forgiveness (Psalm 130:3). I don't see how anyone can honestly read the scriptures and imagine that there is a possibility for a person to escape judgment based solely on their confession. And we see this in Matthew 7:21-23. We must not just hear and confess, but hear and DO (Matthew 7:26). When we arrive at the wedding feast, we must be dressed in our wedding clothes, (Matthew 22:11) so that we don't get thrown out, speechless.

But everything we do is by His grace, so that none can boast. It is not our clothing that is the wedding attire, but the clothing of His grace that we put on, we clothe ourselves with Him (Romans 13:14, Gal 3:27). This is our task.

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AstroAg17 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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It could be argued that everyone is saved; they have only to acknowledge it.

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So if there's a man in the pool drowning, and you throw him a life jacket and he doesn't grab it and drowns anyway, you would argue that you saved him?

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of course not.

I gave him the opportunity though.

He had the free will to accept it or not.

(using your very poor analogy)

GoHomeLeg said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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Baptism, confession, repentance.

What finishes the process?

When can you say "I have achieved all of the scriptural promises of salvation?" or "I have grown up to the full measure of Christ?"

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What happens if you die today while you're still in the process of being saved?

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Time is irrelevant to God.

When you die you will be judged by God and guess what, He knows you're a sinner.

Thaddeus73 said:

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St. Paul (if he was the writer of Hebrews) says that you can indeed lose your salvation after being sanctified in the blood of the covenant....

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

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This is referring to people who are made aware of the new covenant but still insist on trying to wash away their sins via the sacrificial system. Such sacrifices are no longer efficacious.

k2aggie07 said:

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That verse doesn't say anything about once saved always saved, unless your contention is that those who are not saved are separated from God's love.

This presents a host of problems. It also isn't true.

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Those who die without Christ are most certainly separated from God's love.

Don't forget about the Golden Chain of Redemption. It is unbreakable.


For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.8.29-30.NASB

Also, John 6

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven' ?" No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:37-42, 44 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.37-44.NASB

k2aggie07 said:

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Bullcrap. God does not change and God loves all mankind.

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He hated Esau...

That doesn't say anything about once saved always saved. You can't look backwards at salvation, that's tautological. It's like saying "The dice rolls that rolled a six were sixes, therefore any dice rolls that are sixes will be sixes."

k2aggie07 said:

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That doesn't say anything about once saved always saved. You can't look backwards at salvation, that's tautological. It's like saying "The dice rolls that rolled a six were sixes, therefore any dice rolls that are sixes will be sixes."

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I don't understand your objection...