Summary:

Protestants:
Sola not solo!

Non-Protestants:
Solo scriptura doesn't mean anything in Latin. But sola scriptura literally means scripture alone.

Protestants:
No! We use other stuff too! But not as a standard!

Non Protestants:
So, scripture is your only standard?

Protestants:
No! We use other stuff too, but it has to match scripture!

Non-Protestants:
So... you mean scripture is your only standard then?

Protestants:
Stop telling us what we believe! You're just being difficult! Darn Catholics!

I was just reading about the Orthodox church under the Soviet Union, and maybe I'm off here, but it seems like a good example of how the gates of hell won't prevail against it. You had a violent atheist regime that killed, or imprisoned, countless clergy. You had clergy collaborate with an evil regime. You saw 70+ years of the structure of the church basically being nonexistent due to intense persecution. Through all that, the Spirit still worked in those who continued to follow the way of Christ. That's how the church is "infallible", and will always prevail against the gates of hell. Again, maybe I'm off on my understanding of "infallible" and Russian Orthodox history.

The soviets murdered over a hundred thousand priests along with hundreds of bishops. The number of churches in Russia went from around 30,000 to fewer than 500 by the 1940s. The church regrew in the post-WWII era only to be decimated again by Khrushchev and later soviets. Most seminaries and monasteries were closed. People who were requesting baptisms, weddings, and funderals we required to be reported to the state. Children were not permitted to attend religious services or receive the Eucharist. It really is incredibly sad what happened there, and incredible testimony to the perseverance of the Russian faithful and the new martyrs.

I was told, though, a story that sort of exemplifies the endemic faithfulness of the Russian population. There was a public debate held between a soviet atheist and a Russian bishop or priest (I can't remember which). The atheist spoke with great fervor and eloquence about atheism, and was very convincing. The crowd listened attentively.

When he was finished, the priest stood up, thanked him, and said there was no way he would be able to counter his arguments, or match his logic, and eloquence. After bowing and apologizing, he turned to the crowd and said simply, "Khristos voskres!" (Christ is Risen!) to the crowd, who roared back "Voistinu voskres!" (Indeed He is Risen!).

RetiredAg said:

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Also, something that's been on my mind - I think it's telling that any contemporary accounts I have read of the early church from those outside the church seem to always make note of the peculiar love Christians showed towards others, especially the marginalized and their enemies. Love and shalom to the point of death. Like the God-breathed scriptures, their lives were a witness to the Word, Jesus Christ. It wasn't their memorization of verses that they were known for. The scriptures are absolutely useful, but someone said earlier (or on another thread) that if we didn't have the bible then we wouldn't know about Jesus. That statement is dangerous and wrong. Nonbelievers of the day didn't have bibles in their homes or in the nightstand of a hotel. But they knew about these Christians and their Christ because of their love.

It seems like we elevate the scriptures to the level of Christ, even giving them the same name as Christ....the Word of God. The scriptures are a witness to God. They aren't Christ. The church, however, is the body of Christ. Given that, i think it's dangerous to be as dismissive of the tradition of the body of Christ, which is what sola scriptura does (intentional or not).

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Again, you are not asking and learning, you are telling.

The Word of God is not Christ. No one is elevating God's Word to that level except those who are using that to misrepresent Protestants' position.

So drop it. Let go of that notion because it isn't true.

We (Lutheran's at least), do not put our faith in the Bible.

Sola Fide is "faith alone" in Jesus Christ for our salvation.

So your quote should read:

They submit Jesus as the only criterion of the faith, the only rule of faith. Anything that doesn't align - or that doesn't align with this interpretation. I should say - is not considered normative, or a standard, at all.


I won't speak to the intentions of the first quote as I didn't say it (I don't think).

It's probably semantics, but certainly Jesus is the most direct revelation of God speaking to us.

As you say, the Bible is certainly not on the same level as Jesus.

Quote:

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The Word of God is not Christ. No one is elevating God's Word to that level except those who are using that to misrepresent Protestants' position.

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Huh? Christ is the Word of God. I'm very confused by your statement here.

AgLiving06 said:

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We (Lutheran's at least), do not put our faith in the Bible.

Sola Fide is "faith alone" in Jesus Christ for our salvation.

So your quote should read:

They submit Jesus as the only criterion of the faith, the only rule of faith. Anything that doesn't align - or that doesn't align with this interpretation. I should say - is not considered normative, or a standard, at all.

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Now who is being difficult? No one is suggesting you look to the scriptures for salvation.

We're talking about standard or rule of faith, as in, what defines the faith, what determines authenticity, what is the criterion.

AgLiving06 said:

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It's probably semantics, but certainly Jesus is the most direct revelation of God speaking to us.

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+1

"God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son"