Does God plan everything that happens? (4 Views)

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PacifistAg
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AG
Does God plan everything that happens? (4 Views)

I came across this article yesterday and found it very interesting. Thought you all may enjoy reading about different views on foreknowledge and providence.
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Calvinism
This first option is named for John Calvin, a colossus of the Protestant Reformation, but Calvin doesn't get all the credit. While unquestionably a theological innovator, Calvin built on the work of earlier thinkers, especially Augustine of Hippo. Because of those other theologians, some church traditions that don't stem from Calvin himself hold similar perspectives without calling them Calvinism, though that's the name we'll use here.

For Calvinists, to say God is in control of everything means he sovereignly determines everything that happens. All of history is God's unchangeable choice, planned according to his will to display his glory. That's why God can fully know the future, from big stuff like what happens at the end of the world to little stuff like what letter I'll hit next on my keyboard: God knows it because he decreed it. We can trust nothing surprises God, and nothing happens to us outside his will. God's plan can't be stopped.

When Calvinism says God determines everything, it means literally everything, including things we see as evil. God ordains evil things for his ultimate good purpose, but he is not morally responsible for evil. Responsibility instead rests on those who actually do the evil actions. Nevertheless, because nothing can happen outside God's will, in this view even great evils like the Holocaust or 9/11 happen at God's direction and for his ultimate glory. How such events bring God glory may be mysterious to us now, but that doesn't change the fact that they do.

On an individual level, Calvinism says God chooses in advance who is saved. Whether any person is a Christian doesn't depend on their choice. As Calvin put it, God "determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation." This is the doctrine of predestination, which says God decides our eternal fate before we are born. In salvation, as in all our choices, however, Calvinism maintains human free will is compatible with God's unstoppable plan: We freely choose what God has chosen for us. In this way, Calvinists argue, God is solely responsible for our salvation, but we bear the responsibility for the evil we do.
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Molinism
This second approach is named for Luis de Molina, a Catholic theologian who, like Calvin, lived in the 1500s. Molina wanted to reconcile real free will with a strong understanding of God's providence and foreknowledge, and he didn't believe (like Calvin) that our choices can be truly free if everything happens because God plans it that way.

Molina's solution was based on the idea that God knows everything that would happen under the right circumstances. Before he created the world, God thought about how every possible scenario would go. He knew what choice each person would make in every hypothetical situation. For example, God knew if you had to choose between a blue and a green shirt, you'd pick greenand if the choice were between green and pink, you'd take pink.

So Molinism says before creation, God knew all the possible ways history could play out, down to tiny details like your shirt. Then, he chose the best one and made it happen. When you pick the pink shirt, you're choosing of your own free will, and yet your choice was always settled because of the type of world God made. The difference between Molinism and Calvinism is that in Molinism, God knew you'd freely choose the pink shirt if given the chance, and he made a world in which you get that chance. In Calvinism, God decided in advance you will choose pink, so you choose it.

What about more serious stuff than shirts? Well, for Molinists, God is not responsible for evil because evil choices are still free choices. God permitted evil things to happen by making this version of the world, but he never forces anyone to choose evil. The course of history is settled, but God doesn't determine our decisions. Likewise, in Molinism salvation is settled from the moment of creationbut not because God picks and chooses. Rather, God knows who will be placed in situations where they freely accept his salvation.

Molinism is not the official view of the Catholic Church, though it is one way of understanding Catholic doctrine on these questions. "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy," Catholic catechism says, so when "he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination,' he includes in it each person's free response to his grace," giving humans "the ability to cooperate freely with his plans."
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Arminianism
Our third option is Arminianism, named for Jacobus Arminius, another sixteenth-century theologian. Like Molinism, this approach rejects the Calvinist claim that free will is compatible with God determining everything in advancebut then it goes in a very different direction.

The central argument here is that God knows everything that will happen, but he limits his control over our world. It's important to understand this distinction is about what God does, not what he's able to do. For Arminians, God is all-powerful and all-knowing. This view is not describing a weaker or stupider God than the options we covered above.

Arminianism says God could determine everything if he wanted toand he does predestine some things, like his final triumph over evil. But there's a lot more he doesn't plan so that our free will has room to operate. God opts for influence over coercion, because God values love. He wants us to freely choose whether to love and follow him. God knows everything that will happen in our future, but aside from some big parts of his plan for humanity (like that final victory), he doesn't make it happen.

On the question of evil, Arminians have an easier time than Calvinists or Molinists. In this view, some things happen that are not in God's will. That's because God allows his good will to be thwarted by our free choicesit's a risk, yes, but a necessary risk. Real love requires real freedom, and real freedom must include the possibility of making the wrong choice. God never wants evil to happen and always seeks to lead us away from bad choices, but he never forces us to choose love.

This freedom applies to salvation, too. Where Calvinism says salvation is only for those God predestines, Arminianism says God wants everyone to be saved. He makes salvation available to all of us, and he doesn't pick who accepts it. This is not to suggest we save ourselves; on the contrary, only through God's grace can we respond to God in faith.

Though Arminius was a Protestant, his view is quite similar to the Orthodox Church approach, which emphasizes the unequal cooperation (or synergy) between God's grace and human free will in salvation, affirming God's total power and knowledge while rejecting any notion of divine coercion. As the Eastern Orthodox theologian Kallistos Ware puts it, "God wanted sons and daughters, not slaves."
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Open Future
The final perspective we'll cover is often called open theism. I haven't used that name because it suggests this view has a different idea of what God is likeperhaps that he is less than all-powerful and all-knowing. That is not the case. Though it has much in common with Arminianism, this fourth approach is distinct in what it says about the future, not what it says about God's power or intelligence.

Where the other three options all hold that the future is settled (while differing on why that's so), this view says the future is partly settled but also partly open. The settled parts are things God has determined will happen, like his final victory over evil. We don't have to wonder if that will come true, because God settled it.

But the category of settled things is much smaller than the category of things that are genuinely open to multiple possibilities. In this bigger category, God has perfect knowledge of everything that could happen and is likely to happen, but he doesn't know what will happen, because that part of the future doesn't exist to be known.

The crux of the issue is how God relates to time. In the other three views, God is somehow outside of time. All of history is like a big photo, and God can zoom in on different moments. In the open view, God doesn't experience time the same way we do, of course, and his nature doesn't change over timebut God does move through time with us. This approach says the future is like "a line that is not yet drawn," as C. S. Lewis put it. God is with us as human and divine choices together draw the line of history.

The open view's answers to our questions about evil and salvation are close to the Arminian answers. God never makes evil things happen, and in this perspective, he is actively working, in real time, to prevent evil as much as possible without overriding our free will. In this view, we can trust when evil does occur, God does not want it. He shares our grief. Likewise, God does not determine who is saved and who is condemned, and he is always working in love to draw everyone in the world to a voluntary, saving faith.
Martin Q. Blank
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Was the 16th century the big predistination discussion century?

I don't see any practical difference between Calvinism and Molinism. They both make the most sense to me until you try to reconcile your choice with God's will. To me, it doesn't need to be done.

Arminianism has the most problems. He sometimes wills something, but other times doesn't. How about Christ's death? It was part of his plan, but not how the people carried it out? Sounds like it was invented because we don't like the idea of God being in control, not us.

Open theism is simply heresy. God is not God.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
I don't see any real distinction between Calvanism and Molinism as described above.

Under Molinism, you describe God "making this version of the world". Although not explicitly stated, I think there is an implication that God could have created a different version of the world. i.e. God could have made a version of the world where I became pope. Assuming that God could have created different versions of the world, every free choice thus made by humans is the direct result of which version of the world God choose to create. There is no more free will in this version than there is Calvanism, is there?

Star Wars Memes Only
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Free will seems incompatible with all of the first three choices to me.

There are a couple of other perspectives that I find interesting. The first was presented to me by a friend. He suggested that things are not predetermined, God just knows you so well he can say what you are going to do, kind of like a parent knows what a child will do when given the choice between broccoli and a hot dog. I don't really buy this as real omniscience, though. A parent simply doesn't know what the child will do, they can only predict. Probabilistic predictions and omniscience are not the same. When I brought up this point to my friend he said God was different because He knows all factors about you and therefore his "predictions" are actually certain. But the logical implication of this is that you are bound to act in a certain way given a certain set of parameters, which sounds like determinism to me, and that seems logically inconsistent with the idea of free will (compatibilism notwithstanding.)

The second view comes from Tolkien's mythos. The first book of the Silmarillion describes the creation of his universe. Before the universe is created Eru, the analogue of God, creates the ainur, which are basically demigods. Together, Eru and the ainur compose a song, with Eru guiding the general theme of the song but each of the ainur adding in their own minor pieces. At the completion of the song, the universe is created as a sort of manifestation of the song -- the universe plays out what was written within the song. The only concept of free will concordant with an omniscient God from my perspective is if some ethereal part of human beings played a part in the creation of the universe analogous to that of the ainur. God was familiar with the song before the creation, so he has omniscience regarding it. However, since humans were also involved in the creation their free will was imposed onto it at that point. What you are doing now is acting out those choices that were made "prior to" creation.

Thought those were interesting perspectives and just wanted to share.
Martin Q. Blank
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kurt vonnegut said:

I don't see any real distinction between Calvanism and Molinism as described above.

Under Molinism, you describe God "making this version of the world". Although not explicitly stated, I think there is an implication that God could have created a different version of the world. i.e. God could have made a version of the world where I became pope. Assuming that God could have created different versions of the world, every free choice thus made by humans is the direct result of which version of the world God choose to create. There is no more free will in this version than there is Calvanism, is there?
I think it's an attempt to explain how your choices are really your choices. Maybe he didn't understand Calvinism because Calvin didn't believe God makes your choices for you. Depends on the definition of "choice" I guess and how humans make them.
DirtDiver
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Free will seems incompatible with all of the first three choices to me.

I take comfort that people have wrestled with this topic for centuries. Here's my thought process on the topic.

1. My experience of life informs me that I have free will. I can choose to give you 20 bucks or steal your car. My experience of life is informing me that God is not making either decision for me.
2. My information about God comes through what He has revealed about Himself through the scriptures: Through the scriptures I observe the following:
  • God is Holy, does not sin or tempt others to sin.
  • God has foreknowledge, knows events in detail before they happen
  • God at times restrains the full use of His powers: Jesus could have wiped out the Romans with an angel army
  • God holds man accountable for their sins - cannot do this if God is determining their actions
  • God rewards his children when their behavior is faithful - we chose our behavior
  • the commands in scripture are useless if God determins every action or behavior we make. Do not steal is a wasted sentence. Love your enemies is wasted words if God determine.
In the beginning (time) God created (power) the heavens (space) and the (earth). In the words of Turek, God would have to be powerful, immaterial (Spirit), and outside of time to do this. When focusing on the 'outside of time part' my conclusions would be...

"God did not create robots made for compliance. He created humans with free will so that they would have the ability to love. In doing so, this assumes the risk that humans will also choose to hate. God is timeless, outside of time, so He can absolutely see our future at any point in time while at the same time restraining the full use of His power to control us or determine our actions. Or humanity having free without determing their actions is a unique ability from a unique Creator.

If God can be 3 in 1, wouldn't it be consistent to be able to act with freewill and foreknowledge at the same time?
Star Wars Memes Only
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To me this is essentially a "can God create a stone he can't lift" type of situation. Freewill and perfect foreknowledge of the future seem to me to create that sort of paradox.
kurt vonnegut
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AG

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1. My experience of life informs me that I have free will. I can choose to give you 20 bucks or steal your car. My experience of life is informing me that God is not making either decision for me.

Would you expect your experiences in a deterministic world with the illusion of free will to be different from a world where you actually have free will?



PacifistAg
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Freewill and perfect foreknowledge of the future seem to me to create that sort of paradox.
This is why the open future perspective makes sense, IMO. It doesn't deny that God is God, but actually allows for free will, which I believe we absolutely possess. It also doesn't have God as the source of evil, which is the case w/ views such as Calvinism.
Zobel
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Darg, why can't the "song" be our free will as we go? I've seen orthodox writers say that being made in the image and likeness of God is this divine rationality, and that with this gift it's not only that God won't violate our free will but He can't.
Aggrad08
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I agree if you combine it with omnipotence. There is no logically sound way out. Free Will dies under this combination.

This is easily resolved if theists weren't so intransient in their definitions of omnipotence and omniscience. Were Omni to be slightly less than absolute in either category he'd still be more than capable of creating a damn fine universe and the logic suddenly works.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Aggrad08 said:

I agree if you combine it with omnipotence.

Curious, why not omniscience alone?
Star Wars Memes Only
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k2aggie07 said:

Darg, why can't the "song" be our free will as we go? I've seen orthodox writers say that being made in the image and likeness of God is this divine rationality, and that with this gift it's not only that God won't violate our free will but He can't.

If we consider a Silmarillion-like scenario then God's omniscience applies to creation, which is after the free-will of the ainur was imposed on the universe. On the other hand, if our free-will is imposed as we go then I think we're confronted with a contradiction if we also assume God's omniscience applies to all of creation: past, present, and future. In this case, God's omniscience would have to apply before the free-will of human beings is imposed on the universe. I see no way to separate omniscience about the future from the future being predestined, and I see predestination and free will as mutually exclusive.
Aggrad08
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An omniscient being could exist in a non causal manner I think. Assumed two Gods existing outside the universe and independent of each other. One creates a universe but is not omniscient. The other plays no role in creation but is omnscient. Here I could imagine the first creating something beyond his control in time.

But the other, being omniscient would have to exist outside of time. He'd see creation as a static 4-d thing. Past and present would be mere coordinates on a map he didn't draw but fully understood. Or a movie he'd seen before.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Aggrad08 said:

But the other, being omniscient would have to exist outside of time. He'd see creation as a static 4-d thing. Past and present would be mere coordinates on a map he didn't draw but fully understood. Or a movie he'd seen before.

Why would this not imply predestination, and all of the logical implications of that?
Zobel
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Why can't God account for our free will? Real time, actually adjusting in time, such that our prayers actually matter? Forward and backwards, even, since He is outside of time. I don't know that we can really make a true commentary on Gods relationship with time, outside and in. The viewer of the movie, for example, can't reach in and change it on a second viewing. So maybe it's more like a recorded improv on the highest magnitude. He's like the Divine Drew Carey and all of us are on who's line. Free Agents, except in time the Director as it were makes it all work.
Aggrad08
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It's about perspective. If you exist outside time than there is nothing that's not "already happened". It would be like perfect knowledge of the past. That doesn't necessarily effect the mechanism by which the universe worked in the past. It's like tralfamadorian perspective on existence.
Zobel
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Like the magic tapestry in Castle Roogna by Piers Anthony. Dor can watch any portion he likes externally, but when he is in it his actions are real and effect the tapestry and time from within.
Star Wars Memes Only
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k2aggie07 said:

Why can't God account for our free will? Real time, actually adjusting in time, such that our prayers actually matter? Forward and backwards, even, since He is outside of time. I don't know that we can really make a true commentary on Gods relationship with time, outside and in. The viewer of the movie, for example, can't reach in and change it on a second viewing. So maybe it's more like a recorded improv on the highest magnitude. He's like the Divine Drew Carey and all of us are on who's line. Free Agents, except in time the Director as it were makes it all work.


I think this is all fine as long as we aren't assuming omniscience about the future.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Aggrad08 said:

It's about perspective. If you exist outside time than there is nothing that's not "already happened". It would be like perfect knowledge of the past. That doesn't necessarily effect the mechanism by which the universe worked in the past. It's like tralfamadorian perspective on existence.


I don't think you need to affect the mechanism by which the universe worked, works, or is going to work. The reason that the existence of an omniscient being precludes the possibility of free will is that if a being exists that has perfect knowledge of the future then the logical implication is that the future is already written. So it's not that the existence of such a deity affects the workings of the universe, it's that the existence of such a being gives you a new piece of knowledge about how the universe must work through a logical implication.
Aggrad08
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Not familiar with that, but once you step in it's over. You are a causal mechanism.

For an omniscient and creator god, there is nothing he doesn't cause. He literally can't divorce himself from that role.

It's the omnis you are forgetting about. Like god stepping in to make prayers have power. This can't be done. An omniscient being cannot change his mind. So no prayer can affect his action or alter his will. Logically prayer is only for the emotional benefit of the person praying if they pray to an all knowing god.
Aggrad08
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Does my knowledge of the past mean there could have been no free will in the past? Just because it is written doesn't mean there was no free will.

I know (inperfectly) about the past and had no causal role. I know after the fact. If you step outside time after and before are mere directions.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Your knowledge of the past is gained after any free actors have made their choices. That is not the case if you have knowledge of the future.
Aggrad08
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Why not? If I exist outside time the entire history of the universe is simultaneously before me. What is the distinction between past and future and present from that perspective?
Star Wars Memes Only
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The reason that the future has to be distinguished from the past is not because of the deity but because we are talking about potential free actors whose free will affects the future and not the past. If retrocausality were a thing and your free will could affect the past then yes, perfect knowledge of the past would preclude the ability of a free actor to change it.
Aggrad08
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The way I see it it's not different than having perfect knowledge after the universe has ended everything is in the past. It all happened the causal agents all made their choices.

kurt vonnegut
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k2aggie07 said:

I don't know that we can really make a true commentary on Gods relationship with time, outside and in.

kurt vonnegut
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Aggrad08 said:

It's about perspective. If you exist outside time than there is nothing that's not "already happened". It would be like perfect knowledge of the past. That doesn't necessarily effect the mechanism by which the universe worked in the past. It's like tralfamadorian perspective on existence.

The real Kurt Vonnegut would know this. . . but I think that the Tralfamadorians did not believe in free will.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Star Wars Memes Only
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I'm going to wait until I get to a computer to respond to this more fully.
Aggrad08
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That's correct, but in a Vonnegut materialist world with beings that exist across all time that's a pretty open and shut case. I'm willing to leave a little room for a creator to magic some free will if we abandon the omnis and the logical trap they put you in.
Zobel
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Aggrad08 said:

Not familiar with that, but once you step in it's over. You are a causal mechanism.

For an omniscient and creator god, there is nothing he doesn't cause. He literally can't divorce himself from that role.

It's the omnis you are forgetting about. Like god stepping in to make prayers have power. This can't be done. An omniscient being cannot change his mind. So no prayer can affect his action or alter his will. Logically prayer is only for the emotional benefit of the person praying if they pray to an all knowing god.
Omnis are tricky, because you're subjecting God to logic. Unless you're some kind of logical Platonist, or believe that in the hierarchy of created things logic precedes material creation, there is no reason to assume that logic is more prime than reality.

You say there's nothing He doesn't cause, and that's true. But it's like the question of can God create a rock He can't lift? Can God create a being with free will? I'm not sure that the law of noncontradiction applies to God.

Prayer doesn't require God to change His mind. And I don't think God reacts to our prayers, because God as you say is omniscient. But God's plan or providence or will plays out in time, with people in time, with free will but without violating it.

When we pray, God hears our prayers. But He is outside of time, so He hears them in a way that is completely orthogonal to the axis of time. He heard our prayers in a non-time when we didn't yet exist, and after we existed. He heard the prayer in this non-when and shaped the universe accordingly. Every action we engage in with free will is a part of the dance, continuously, because God creates with perfect knowledge of our free will.

It's not call and response, you don't pray and God says "oh ok, now I'll act". It's that when He created, He took into consideration your actual free will to pray and structured reality with this in mind. God's act of creation was, I believe, one act, one creative cacophony experienced by us in time as a continuous existence. And our action within this structure is real, and part of the structure. Our free will, our action, our prayers determine what has been and what will be.
DirtDiver
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Quote:

To me this is essentially a "can God create a stone he can't lift" type of situation. Freewill and perfect foreknowledge of the future seem to me to create that sort of paradox.


I'm glad you mentioned this statement as I haven't reflected on it recently. I think I've often lost the Wonder in the first part of the statement...Can God create a large stone in the first place? This question we have the answer to and it's, Yes. God has revelead that much to us. When we think about the stars, planets, and universe, we observe that His creative abilites are more than we could exhaust in a few lifetimes. Can God create a stone that He cannot lift? I think the honest answer to this question is, we don't know. We are not able to measure the limits, if any, that God may have in that area, and to that extent I don't believe he's revealed those specs with us. I think the person who concludes that God is not all powerful depending on how one may answer this question becomes blinded to the person of God who can create large stones in the first place and so much more. (I'm not saying this person is you at all.)

In investigating the free-will vs foreknowledge paradox I do think we have more pieces of evidence and iformation about God related to this topic than the one above.

Quote:

Would you expect your experiences in a deterministic world with the illusion of free will to be different from a world where you actually have free will?
If one lived in a deterministic world with the illusion of free will then I think it would be obvious then that the person would conclude that they had free will. This begs the questions for the believer in God then, what is the evidence that we do not live in a deterministic world with the illusion of free will?

My pieces of evidence would be:
1. experience of life - this would not be conclusive on it's own given the hypothetical.
2. The revealed nature of God in the scriptures
3. The revealed nature of humanity in the scriptures
4. The responsibility, abilities, and accountability that God has given humanity in the scriptures.
5. Love - by definition does not exist via determinism.
6. The revealed relationship between Jesus and humanity.

I would not put the free-will/foreknowledge category into the logical impossibility category such as making a square circle or having 2 + 2 = 7. God being outside of and not bound by time in His unique abilities could easily create a person with freedom inside of time with free will without controlling behavior. This makes the most sense of the relationship we see with God and man in the scriptures.

It would be awefully strange to live in a world where we experience love, guilt, shame, freedom, for all of those to be meaningless or non-existent.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
k2aggie07 said:


Omnis are tricky, because you're subjecting God to logic. Unless you're some kind of logical Platonist, or believe that in the hierarchy of created things logic precedes material creation, there is no reason to assume that logic is more prime than reality.


Ohh. . . . this is making my head hurt.

If I amend my understanding of logic to say that 'God is not subject to logic' and 'logic is not prime over reality'. . . . can I logically conclude that any statement about God or reality is illogical? Back to Agnosticism! Yay!
Zobel
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I think you can - and should - conclude that any statement about God is illogical, for sure.

But statements about reality are great, and logic is like anything a descriptive and predictive tool.
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