Something from the Southern Baptist Convention ERLC Website Caught My Eye

9,106 Views | 235 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by swimmerbabe11
UTExan
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Quote:

There is an ethical obligation to confront evil. Christians living in a democracy play are placed in a particularly difficult moral dilemma. Christians cannot choose to stand on the sidelines and make no decisions concerning the more materialistic aspects of government.

It is crucial for Christians of all stripes to reject the temptation of pacifism. Though alluring, it is merely a mirage. Guenter Lewy, historian and former member of the Jewish Brigade in Germany, argues that those who seek to avoid war may choose to "avoid the moral dilemmas posted by the world of statesmanship and statecraft . . . but they have no right to sacrifice others for this end." In an essay titled "Learning in Wartime," C.S. Lewis asserted his rejection of pacifism because of the numerous ethical impediments:

If I tried to become [a pacifist] I should find a very doubtful factual basis, an obscure train of reasoning, a weight of authority both human and Divine against me, and strong grounds for suspecting that my wishes had directed my decisionIt may be, after all, that Pacifism is right. But it seems to me very long odds, longer odds that I would care to take with the voice of almost all humanity against me.
The Christian just war tradition rejects the quixotic idealism of the world and embraces the realism of man's fallen nature. Blind pacifism is not an option.
https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/drones-foreign-policy-and-christian-ethics
Aggie4Life02
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AG
False dichotomy. The choice isn't between pacifism and warmongering.
UTExan
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Aggie4Life02 said:

False dichotomy. The choice isn't between pacifism and warmongering.
And the writing makes that point rather explicitly.
Win At Life
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I'd like to confront them with the evil spirit that abolished God's Sabbath and instituted worship on a day dedicated to the pagan sun god.
craigernaught
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Chrisitian pacifism is not blind.

I reject an ethic of Christian pacifism that portrays pacifism as a universal ethic that is right at all times and all places. But Christian pacifism practiced and espoused by most pacifists is not a universal ethic. It is a discipline of and a witness to the love of Jesus Christ rather than attempt to categorize all behavior as universally right or wrong.

I'm not a pacifist, but I'm about as close as you can be without actually being one. If holy warrrior is on one end of the spectrum and pacifist on the other with just war in the middle, I'm on the edge between just war and pacifism. Still, we don't need to wholesale reject Christian pacifism according to its narrowest defintion by some universal ethic. If pacifists feel called to it as a discipline and a witness to the sacrificial love of Jesus, then wonderful. Much like those who take on a call to celibacy or poverty as discipline or witness should not be rejected. We have never been and never will be at risk of being overwhelmed by pacifism. What are they going to do, force all of us to be pacifists?
Aggiefan#1
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Win At Life said:

I'd like to confront them with the evil spirit that abolished God's Sabbath and instituted worship on a day dedicated to the pagan sun god.
UTExan
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Win At Life said:

I'd like to confront them with the evil spirit that abolished God's Sabbath and instituted worship on a day dedicated to the pagan sun god.


Err, take that up with Paul.
UTExan
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C S Lewis seemed to be there as well, then moved to the side of just war. Of course, that generation had witnessed industrial slaughter on a massive scale.
Win At Life
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UTExan said:

Win At Life said:

I'd like to confront them with the evil spirit that abolished God's Sabbath and instituted worship on a day dedicated to the pagan sun god.


Err, take that up with Paul.


The Apostles in Jerusalem said those who accuse Paul of preaching against the Law are liars.
Zobel
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And you worship on a day dedicated to a pagan planet god. This is fun!
PacifistAg
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UTExan said:

C S Lewis seemed to be there as well, then moved to the side of just war. Of course, that generation had witnessed industrial slaughter on a massive scale.

Industrial slaughter perpetrated by nations that largely identified as "Christian". If only the Christians in all these armies had chosen love of enemies instead.
UTExan
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RetiredAg said:

UTExan said:

C S Lewis seemed to be there as well, then moved to the side of just war. Of course, that generation had witnessed industrial slaughter on a massive scale.

Industrial slaughter perpetrated by nations that largely identified as "Christian". If only the Christians in all these armies had chosen love of enemies instead.


There is a huge difference between cultural or inherited Christianity and personal conversion. And of course the article differentiates between a perfect world and the fallen world. I know that given your experience and background you chose one path while I, with my own background, chose another. The narratives of the time indicate a modern world full of aggressive personalities ready to go to war with gravitas
Aggie4Life02
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Aggie4Life02 said:

False dichotomy. The choice isn't between pacifism and warmongering.


Just war theory is mostly warmongering.
Zobel
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Not a single quote of scripture. And Thomas Aquinas is not an early church Father.

Quote:

The Christian _________ tradition rejects the quixotic idealism of the world and embraces the realism of man's fallen nature. Blind _{opposite of above}_ is not an option.
I have no idea what this means. I feel like you could justify any sin with this sentence.
PacifistAg
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k2aggie07 said:

Not a single quote of scripture.

That was the first thing I noticed.
PacifistAg
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UTExan said:

RetiredAg said:

UTExan said:

C S Lewis seemed to be there as well, then moved to the side of just war. Of course, that generation had witnessed industrial slaughter on a massive scale.

Industrial slaughter perpetrated by nations that largely identified as "Christian". If only the Christians in all these armies had chosen love of enemies instead.


There is a huge difference between cultural or inherited Christianity and personal conversion.

I agree. Inherited Christianity results in justifications for industrial slaughter. Churches in all belligerent nations claimed their nation were in the right. Personal conversion, one would assume then, would result in far fewer wielding the sword for Caesar.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
commando2004
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Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.
Zobel
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Those who take up the sword will die by the sword.
PacifistAg
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Well, I'm not a witness to the church of Franklin (or whoever is the actual source of that quote). I am a witness to the Kingdom where sword is beaten into plowshare.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
Solo Tetherball Champ
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k2aggie07 said:

Those who take up the sword will die by the sword.

And yet so many who have taken up the sword, willingly or were forced to by chance or circumstances did not die by the sword.

Martin Q. Blank
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

k2aggie07 said:

Those who take up the sword will die by the sword.

And yet so many who have taken up the sword, willingly or were forced to by chance or circumstances did not die by the sword.


David, Joshua, Gideon, Samson...
Win At Life
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Quote:

Those who beat their swords into plowshares

Isaiah 2:4 "They will beat their swords into plowshares"

Unrelated to the OP, but if the concept of using a metal plow existed in 1000BC, why were Americans using wooden sticks in the 1800's, needing someone to "invent" the metal plow that revolutionized the farming world?
PacifistAg
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Interesting question that got me googling.

History of the plow
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
Zobel
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Are you arguing with me or Christ Jesus? It's not my words.
jkag89
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Win At Life said:

I'd like to confront them with the evil spirit that abolished God's Sabbath and instituted worship on a day dedicated to the pagan sun god.
Zobel
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I am not arguing for pacifism. I am not sure I can accept it.

But, can anyone explain to me how nonvoilence is the "quixotic idealism of the world"? I thought that radical idealism was more of the purview of Christianity than the world.

What else does this author believe is quixotic worldly idealism? No sex before marriage? Rejection of material goods? Denying oneself?
Frok
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I think pacifism fits the bill from what he said. Taken to it's pure form its overly idealistic. This is a fallen world. The peace you see today was secured by war.

I'm not saying warmongering is the way to go. I just think everything is too complicated to take a complete 100% stance one way or the other.
Martin Q. Blank
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I don't think k2 is arguing for pacifism. Just that some may be called to it like monks or celibate. If everyone became a celibate, we'd end humanity real quick. It's another example of people carving out an enclave in the world and removing themselves from society rather than engage in it.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

It's another example of people carving out an enclave in the world and removing themselves from society rather than engage in it.
Except it's not at all. Pacifists don't remove themselves from society. We don't refuse to engage with society. We simply reject the use of violence, especially as a method of engagement.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
UTExan
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k2aggie07 said:

Not a single quote of scripture. And Thomas Aquinas is not an early church Father.

Quote:

The Christian _________ tradition rejects the quixotic idealism of the world and embraces the realism of man's fallen nature. Blind _{opposite of above}_ is not an option.
I have no idea what this means. I feel like you could justify any sin with this sentence.
Then perhaps you should e-mail the author and ask her/him for clarifcation. It was stated from the position of a Christian realiist probably more in the tradition of Reinhold Niebuhr than your own patristic tradition. We do know that Christians served in the army of SPQR.
Martin Q. Blank
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

It's another example of people carving out an enclave in the world and removing themselves from society rather than engage in it.
Except it's not at all. Pacifists don't remove themselves from society. We don't refuse to engage with society. We simply reject the use of violence, especially as a method of engagement.
You were born in America, but feel your allegiance to the State is voluntary. You exist in some kind of spiritual realm void of responsibility to society. You're content in letting others resist tyranny on your behalf while you refuse to engage in civil justice. Christian light has no place in civil government. If that's not an enclave, I don't know what is. It's equivalent to being celibate instead of bearing fruit for society. Or living in a cave to pray the rest of your life instead of working and contributing to society. Nothing wrong with it, I don't think, just naive.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

You were born in America, but feel your allegiance to the State is voluntary. You exist in some kind of spiritual realm void of responsibility to society. You're content in letting others resist tyranny on your behalf while you refuse to engage in civil justice. Christian light has no place in civil government. If that's not an enclave, I don't know what is. It's equivalent to being celibate instead of bearing fruit for society. Or living in a cave to pray the rest of your life instead of working and contributing to society. Nothing wrong with it, I don't think, just naive.
I don't need to have allegiance to the state to be engaged with society. I exist in this realm as an ambassador of God's Kingdom. I do not believe I am "void of responsibility to society". My responsibility is to be a witness to Christ in a society that's in desperate need of Him. I resist tyranny, but simply refuse to use violent means to do so.

Again, your statement is simply false.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
Solo Tetherball Champ
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k2aggie07 said:

Are you arguing with me or Christ Jesus? It's not my words.
Two thoughts:

1- Taken at face value, Christ was wrong - many people who have lived by the sword did not die by the sword.

2 - You have no issue with arguing with Christ when it suits your theology.
Zobel
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Did I offer any interpretation of the words? Did I demand that Christ literally meant if you pick up a sword you will die to a sword?

And when do I argue with Christ?
Martin Q. Blank
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

You were born in America, but feel your allegiance to the State is voluntary. You exist in some kind of spiritual realm void of responsibility to society. You're content in letting others resist tyranny on your behalf while you refuse to engage in civil justice. Christian light has no place in civil government. If that's not an enclave, I don't know what is. It's equivalent to being celibate instead of bearing fruit for society. Or living in a cave to pray the rest of your life instead of working and contributing to society. Nothing wrong with it, I don't think, just naive.
I don't need to have allegiance to the state to be engaged with society. I exist in this realm as an ambassador of God's Kingdom. I do not believe I am "void of responsibility to society". My responsibility is to be a witness to Christ in a society that's in desperate need of Him. I resist tyranny, but simply refuse to use violent means to do so.

Again, your statement is simply false.
You are an American and under United States and Texas civil law. You are protected as a law abiding citizen. You think this is voluntary, but it is not. There is an earthly kingdom and a heavenly kingdom. You are a citizen of both and you have duties and responsibilities to both. Thinking you are only a citizen of the heavenly is carving a spiritual enclave into this world and trying to engage with it from your bubble.
 
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