AstroAg17 said:

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those two parents have done nothing but create resentment with those kids.

if the child isn't showing respect to others, the answer isn't to cause him embarrassment and ridicule. all that does is encourage other children to do more negative behavior.

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Both of these statements preclude the possibility of positive effects, namely that the behavior will probably stop and the kid will know why the behavior needed to stop. Kids resent all punishments. Not equally, but kids rarely say "good call mom/dad. I deserved this." Do you agree that the kid will "get it" after such a punishment? Do you think the kid would get the same understanding from being grounded?

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my point isn't that the behavior won't stop by doing this. it's that you are very likely (imo) creating ancillary issues by taking that approach to stopping the behavior.

(extreme example) I could probably get my kid to stop leaving the toilet seat up if I smacked him every time he left it up. but my end goal isn't to just have the toilet down. it's to have a kid that will remember to put down the toilet seat down and also doesn't think that smacking someone is the way to get what you want. (extreme example)

I don't think getting the kid to stop bullying others is enough if by doing so, I've created a situation where other people think bullying is good sometimes. (bully gets a taste of his own medicine) encouraging others to participate in mean-spiritedness and giving them tacit approval to do so creates more trouble, imo.

as for resentment towards parents, sure they don't like punishments, but I want them to understand that the punishment is being dished out and is given not because I'm more powerful than them, but because I understand what is best for them, and want to keep them on the right path.

making the child feel small and powerless through physical domination only makes them think that physical domination is the way to be powerful in the world.

I'm not trying to say I have all the answers, just sharing my thoughts on how I view these things.

we're talking about the creation of a member of society, here, so it bears some thought.

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making the child feel small and powerless through physical domination only makes them think that physical domination is the way to be powerful in the world.

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This!

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we're talking about the creation of a member of society, here, so it bears some thought.

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This reminds me of something I saw on twitter this morning. It was a quote that went: "It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless."

AstroAg17 said:

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It's a novel idea and I wouldn't do it, but it makes some sense. I wouldn't do it because I think the negative aspects outweigh the positive.

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that's my point. just because it might work, doesn't mean that is what you should do. you have to look at secondary and tertiary results from it.

I'm by no means perfect, but that is what I try to do when correcting troublesome behavior.

schmendeler said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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schmendeler said:

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you don't teach someone something is wrong by doing it to them.

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Why not? Seems sensible to me that if a child experiences a similar pain to what he put someone else through he might better be able to understand the consequences of his actions.

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I think you can express to them the pain caused without doing it to them.

if it's wrong to call kid names or beat them up, why does it make it right for you to do it because you are trying to teach them a lesson?

the harm you are causing to them is no less real because it's you who are the one doing it.

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Can you verbally describe an experience as vividly as the actual experience itself? In most cases, I don't think so. In some cases I think it is didactically better to undergo the actual experience rather than a mere shadow of it.

And again, I think the thing that sets discipline apart from bullying is a lack of the sadistic nature inherent to bullying and the intended consequences of the action. After some disciplinary actions I think a debriefing is appropriate and ought to be expected. The pain of discipline may be temporarily equivalent to that of bullying, but the entirety of the experience is not, and I do think that matters.

AstroAg17 said:

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About the experiment in the OP, there is some evidence that plant gene expression can be affected by sound. Maybe if all the kids yelled compliments at the exact right frequency, the plant could grow better.

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Snowflake-a$$ plant.

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Can you verbally describe an experience as vividly as the actual experience itself? In most cases, I don't think so. In some cases I think it is didactically better to undergo the actual experience rather than a mere shadow of it.

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So, since you can't "verbally describe" the experience of being bullied, you're going to set your kids up to get bullied? I'd argue that's bullying as well, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. But I don't see how setting your child up to be bullied by others is an effective approach, especially when there are actual approaches that can work without eroding the trust the child has in the parents.It also reinforces poor behavior from others by setting the environment for others to engage in bullying.

RetiredAg said:

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Can you verbally describe an experience as vividly as the actual experience itself? In most cases, I don't think so. In some cases I think it is didactically better to undergo the actual experience rather than a mere shadow of it.

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So, since you can't "verbally describe" the experience of being bullied, you're going to set your kids up to get bullied? I'd argue that's bullying as well, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. But I don't see how setting your child up to be bullied by others is an effective approach, especially when there are actual approaches that can work without eroding the trust the child has in the parents.

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If done correctly I don't think any trust will be eroded at all.

Different strokes (open hand, backhand /s), different folks and all.

dargscisyhp said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Can you verbally describe an experience as vividly as the actual experience itself? In most cases, I don't think so. In some cases I think it is didactically better to undergo the actual experience rather than a mere shadow of it.

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So, since you can't "verbally describe" the experience of being bullied, you're going to set your kids up to get bullied? I'd argue that's bullying as well, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. But I don't see how setting your child up to be bullied by others is an effective approach, especially when there are actual approaches that can work without eroding the trust the child has in the parents.

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If done correctly I don't think any trust will be eroded at all.

Different strokes (open hand, backhand /s), different folks and all.

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I get that, but I am struggling to see how one can do something to their child so they will experience bullying would not result in some erosion of trust.

How does spanking erode trust?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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How does spanking erode trust?

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it doesn't. my wife is always better after.

schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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How does spanking erode trust?

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it doesn't. my wife is always better after.

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I know she is.

RetiredAg said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Can you verbally describe an experience as vividly as the actual experience itself? In most cases, I don't think so. In some cases I think it is didactically better to undergo the actual experience rather than a mere shadow of it.

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So, since you can't "verbally describe" the experience of being bullied, you're going to set your kids up to get bullied? I'd argue that's bullying as well, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. But I don't see how setting your child up to be bullied by others is an effective approach, especially when there are actual approaches that can work without eroding the trust the child has in the parents.

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If done correctly I don't think any trust will be eroded at all.

Different strokes (open hand, backhand /s), different folks and all.

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I get that, but I am struggling to see how one can do something to their child so they will experience bullying would not result in some erosion of trust.

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When my kid was four she intentionally farted in my dad's face. She thought it was hilarious. I scolded her at the time, but couldn't quite get through her hysteric laughter. The next time I had the opportunity I dutch ovened her. She cried. I then explained why I had done that, and how what she had done was even worse as it was towards her grandfather. I think she understood much better after that. I also never got any hint at her trusting me less after that. I think the debriefing is probably key to that.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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How does spanking erode trust?

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it doesn't. my wife is always better after.

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I know she is.

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ZING!

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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How does spanking erode trust?

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it doesn't. my wife is always better after.

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I know she is.

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Honey, I didn't know you posted on Texags.