2 Timothy 3:14-17

2,840 Views | 50 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Zobel
agie95
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AG
14 You, however, continue in what you have learned and what you have become convinced of. For you know from whom you have learned, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to make you wise, leading to salvation through trusting in Messiah Yeshua. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for restoration, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the person belonging to God may be capable, fully equipped for every good deed.

On another post someone posted abut this verse saying it referred to the New Testament. Let's look at the evidence to see if that is even possible.

1. 1 Timothy is estimated to be written in late 50's and 65.

2. Paul met Timothy in Acts 16, which is believed to be around years 50-51. He was a disciple, which presumes an age of at least a teenager at Acts 16.

3. Timothy knew these sacred writings from childhood - they make you wise and lead to salvation through trusting in Yeshua.

This puts the birth of Timothy within a few years of the death and resurrection of the Messiah. What was written in Timothy's childhood? Could Paul be referencing his own letters? He couldn't be referencing the Gospels since none of them were written from Timothy's childhood. He couldn't be referencing James, Peter, etc b/c those were written after 1 Timothy.

One has to conclude that the sacred writings Paul is referencing is the Tanak and nothing else. It is the Tanak that is "All Scripture". It is the Tanak that is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for restoration, and for training in righteousness. It is through the Tanak that one becomes fully equipped for ever good deed. In essence it is the Torah and the commandments within, that leads one to all of these things.

Therefore, Paul is saying the Torah is useful for:

1. Teaching
2. Reproof
3. Restoration
4. Training in righteousness
5. Make you wise
6. Leading to salvation



AggiePlaya
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AG
Why do you feel the need to make people prove they are 100% accurate historians as a benchmark for righteousness?

Luke 10:41 comes to mind. You are worrying about all the wrong things, missing the most important parts of the Word
agie95
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Christians think they only need the gospels and the epistles. The Tanak is good and all, but for daily living and for salvation not very important. According to Paul, he is giving Timothy a much different picture.

As Yeshua said regarding salvation, what does the Torah say.

Again, someone said this passage was talking about the NT. This isn't the first time I have seen this. Christians consider the NT Scripture based on verses like this when there is no way the writers considered their works or similar works as Scripture. It has led to a very problematic theology.

That is why I press on despite everything said here.
AggiePlaya
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If God wanted perfection he would have made us Robots
tehmackdaddy
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agie95 said:

Christians think they only need the gospels and the epistles.


Nope.
agie95
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Yep! Take in mind, these are general, broad statements. I obviously cannot state the opinion of the 40,000 or so different denominations much less all those who follow them.

In general, the church does not believe that the Torah is useful. Think about when kids get baptized, what are they given typically? The NT.
PacifistAg
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AG
agie95 said:

Yep
Nope.
AgLiving06
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agie95 said:

Yep! Take in mind, these are general, broad statements. I obviously cannot state the opinion of the 40,000 or so different denominations much less all those who follow them.

In general, the church does not believe that the Torah is useful. Think about when kids get baptized, what are they given typically? The NT.

I've never heard of somebody just giving the New Testament to a baby being baptized.

Maybe you need to rephrase that a small amount of christians may do this.

But then again, it's not normal for Jews (or self proclaimed Jews) to spend all their time telling Christians how to interpret the New Testament, but here we are.
PacifistAg
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AG
Yeah, every church I have attended gave those who were baptized a Bible. Not just a NT.
agie95
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Regardless, 1 Timothy 3:14-17 is not talking about the NT. He is talking about Torah! Nice attempt to derail.
PacifistAg
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agie95 said:

Regardless, 1 Timothy 3:14-17 is not talking about the NT. He is talking about Torah! Nice attempt to derail.
Correcting your misrepresentations about Christianity isn't a "derail".
agie95
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AG


Every church (Baptist generally) I went to gave out a small NT either at a baby dedication or baptism. Again, nice derailment. I go back to ignoring you now.
AgLiving06
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agie95 said:



Every church (Baptist generally) I went to gave out a small NT either at a baby dedication or baptism. Again, nice derailment. I go back to ignoring you now.

You derailed your own thread by making claims you can't support.
mch4970
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I think it was also in that same letter to Timothy that Paul writes

Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
agie95
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AG
Not referring to the word of God.
Vcat
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Will you please give your interpretation of the scripture brought in the OP.

Specifically this one (The basis of the thread):

15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to make you wise, leading to salvation through trusting in Messiah Yeshua.

It is a valid question; what sacred writings did Timothy have access to during his childhood?
PacifistAg
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AG
Well, I wasn't commenting on the subject of the OP, but on the OP's continued insistence to misrepresent, or more accurately lie about, Christianity. He believes in a works-based salvation, so it's no surprise that Christians find much to disagree with him about. The problem is when he makes blatantly false comments, such as: "Christians think they only need the gospels and the epistles." He makes it clear, over and over again, that he has zero desire to discuss respectfully w/ others here.
Vcat
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Will you please discuss respectfully with me?
I agree with agie on certain points and it would help my study and internal debate to see his points discussed.

I understand the bad blood. I have lurked the many previous threads... but I would like to hear different view points expressed and defended.
agie95
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lol
PacifistAg
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Quote:

It is a valid question; what sacred writings did Timothy have access to during his childhood?
Short answer...I don't know.

Long answer...No doubt the Torah was part of that. I'm not sure what other "sacred writings" Timothy may have had access to as a child. He was born in Asia Minor to a Jewish mother and Greek father. He wasn't circumcised until adulthood despite already being a Christian. Of course, as we see w/ Paul & Titus, circumcision itself is not, in and of itself, necessary.
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

I understand the bad blood.
BTW, I have no "bad blood" w/ agie. I disagree with him and his works-based view of salvation, but I have no gripe w/ him. I am no fan of his tone, which looks nothing like Christ and only pushes those he claim to want to reach further away. But "bad blood"? Not at all.
Vcat
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I believe Paul is referring to the Tanak. Based on the fact that he says that it leads to salvation through believing in Jesus, and that he calls it scripture.

If we agree on this, the next question in my mind is do we agree that the books of the old testament are useful for teaching, training and correcting?
LevelAg
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I would agree that the "sacred writings" have reference to the Old Testament. It all points to Jesus so it leads you to salvation by pointing to the only one who can save.

However, the next verse expands beyond the sacred writings of Timothy's childhood. Paul doesn't use "they" to simply refer back to the "sacred writings." Instead, he says, "All scripture" - all writings that are "God-breathed." This would include the writings of the Apostles.

John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; (31) but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


2 Peter 3:1-2 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, (2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

2 Peter 3:15-16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, (16) as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Peter makes it clear that Paul's (and thus, his own as well) writings should be considered "Scripture."

Are the OT writings useful and point toward the Messiah? Absolutely. Are they alone in that endeavor? No. All scripture, including the writings of the apostles, are useful for making each of us look more like Jesus.





PacifistAg
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Quote:

If we agree on this, the next question in my mind is do we agree that the books of the old testament are useful for teaching, training and correcting?
Of course. All books, OT and NT, is useful for teaching, training and correcting.
PacifistAg
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AG
Quote:

Are the OT writings useful and point toward the Messiah? Absolutely. Are they alone in that endeavor? No. All scripture, including the writings of the apostles, are useful for making each of us look more like Jesus.
Yep. That's a pretty standard Christian view, which is why it is so odd that agie would accuse Christians of only viewing the NT like that.
Vcat
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Agreed, thank you.
Vcat
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Sounds like we are all on the same page! EOT!
AgLiving06
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Vcat said:

Sounds like we are all on the same page! EOT!

All christian's on this thread are on the same page.

agie95
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LevelAg said:

I would agree that the "sacred writings" have reference to the Old Testament. It all points to Jesus so it leads you to salvation by pointing to the only one who can save.

However, the next verse expands beyond the sacred writings of Timothy's childhood. Paul doesn't use "they" to simply refer back to the "sacred writings." Instead, he says, "All scripture" - all writings that are "God-breathed." This would include the writings of the Apostles.

John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; (31) but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


2 Peter 3:1-2 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, (2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

2 Peter 3:15-16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, (16) as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Peter makes it clear that Paul's (and thus, his own as well) writings should be considered "Scripture."

Are the OT writings useful and point toward the Messiah? Absolutely. Are they alone in that endeavor? No. All scripture, including the writings of the apostles, are useful for making each of us look more like Jesus.






There is no evidence that anyone was calling Paul's letters Scripture as of the writing of Timothy. There is no way Paul, a Pharisee, is equating the letters he had written at that point with the Torah. Ask anyone with any knowledge about Pharisees and they will tell you same thing. No way. Not one of the Gospels had been written at this point. Paul included his own opinion in his letters disqualifying them as God-breathed.

Saying the next verse expands beyond the Tanakh without any contextual evidence from Paul is careless.

2 Peter 3:1-2 is not referencing what they wrote is Scripture. He certainly never calls Paul an apostle.

2 Peter 3:15-16 is not calling Paul's letters Scripture. The word used for "scripture" is (I hope the Greek will post) and was used in that day to mean writings, letters, and documents. While it can be used to refer to a collection of writings like Scripture, the word in of itself doesn't necessarily mean "scripture" how you and I think of Scripture.

The intent of the post was to continue to show that the Torah is in full use and expected to be followed. 2 Peter 3:17 continues to show this as well:

Since you already know all this, loved ones, be on your guard so that you are not led astray by the error of the lawless and lose your sure footing.

The ignorant and unstable are twisting Paul's letters and other writings which include Torah, and Peter is telling them to be on guard. Don't be led astray by the error of lawless and lose your sure footing. If you go on sinning you will lose your sure footing. Don't be lawless.

My point was not to say Christians never open the front half of the book. My point is they use only the back half to determine the way they walk or said another way, what commandments to follow, if any.

You want to look my like your Messiah? Follow Torah. Imitate Him in this regard.


Zobel
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Graphe is translated as scripture 51 times in the NT and not once as anything else.
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

The intent of the post was to continue to show that the Torah is in full use and expected to be followed.
Except, of course, when it comes to the issue of circumcision w/ Paul, a Pharisee, and Titus.
mch4970
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And the actual day of sabbath or which meat to eat, per Romans 14
Vcat
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If this were true, why would the commandment to odstain from blood remain?

Genesis 9:4
Deuteronomy 12:16
Acts 15:20

Scripture does not contradict scripture.
mch4970
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Does it have to be either/or?
Vcat
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I am not an expert, but I am searching for the truth. My answer today would be yes, both or neither.

Malachi 3:6-7
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