P - Making sense of mass murderers

1,076 Views | 36 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Dad-O-Lot
Dad-O-Lot
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AG
I'll try to make this not be "TLDR".

With the recent news of school shootings, vegas shootings, Austin bomber, etc... There has been a lot of discussion about mass murder and the causes and ideas to prevent it.

Not having any training in psychology, I (and I am sure many others) still try to make some sort of sense of it and try to understand what would cause someone to perform such heinous acts against their fellow humans.

I had some thoughts come to me while driving yesterday which I have attempted to put into writing. It makes sense to me, but as I said, my only education in the subject is life.

Very simplified, it requires 3 things for someone to commit mass murder: Capacity, Capability, Opportunity

Capacity: They must have the mental capacity to kill without remorse, or with no regard for remorse. Some may consider this the "mental illness" part of the equation. The Sociopath who has no conscience; or the person who just got angry enough that he doesn't care; or perhaps is so upset that he or she wants to be noticed and sees this as a way to do it. This is probably a spectrum. Some people may not be able to kill even in self-defense and others perhaps only in self-defense, or if in a sudden rage.

Capability: This is with regards to either physical ability, and/or access to the "tools" that would allow for murder or mass murder. A paraplegic may have no regard for human life and could wish death on many, but has no capability to make it happen. This would also be where access to the weapons that make murder on a large scale possible would fit into the equation. If you don't have the capacity to kill, you could have access to the button for a nuclear weapon, and still be considered "safe" with it. If, however, you were a sociopath, society wouldn't want you around any weapons if it could be avoided.

Opportunity: This is the part of the equation which may be controlled via walls, protection, access, etc... Metal detectors etc... make an attempt to keep the "capability" (weapons) away from the "opportunity" (large crowds). A person with the capacity to kill, and a large cache of weapons could be considered "safe" if he could just be kept away from anyone else. This is probably the hardest to control because "opportunity" is everywhere.

Just some thoughts. I think that in any serious discussion of "why does this happen", and "how can we prevent it", all three of these parts of the equation need to be considered. I believe there are too many "one trick pony" responses which attempt to address only 1 of these and the response from their detractors invariably focus on one of the others as the blame or as a better method of prevention.

In my opinion, a huge issue is that our society has developed more people with the "capacity" to kill than existed in the relatively recent past. Much of our culture has lost a sense of the sacredness of human life. If we aren't made in the image of God, then we're really no different than (or more important than) any other animal. If the larger society believes that one subset of humanity is not worthy of protection, (unborn, infirm, criminal, etc...) then is it any stretch to just add another segment of humanity to that list? Most people wouldn't make that leap, but some will; and the more people the larger society treats as not worthy of protection, the more additional "exceptions" are likely to be made by those on the edge.
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Frok
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It's a very interesting relevant topic. Many blame these things on mental illnesses however it's not always easy to spot. Many of these people appeared to be completely normal before their rampage.

It seems they are often social recluses. Loneliness can lead to resentment of others.
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

Much of our culture has lost a sense of the sacredness of human life. If we aren't made in the image of God, then we're really no different than (or more important than) any other animal. If the larger society believes that one subset of humanity is not worthy of protection, (unborn, infirm, criminal, etc...) then is it any stretch to just add another segment of humanity to that list?
This. We've created so many rationalizations to justify taking life that we no longer truly value life. Whether it's abortion, capital punishment, war, or any act that marginalizes or rejects the marginalized, those all chip away at the sanctity of life and are grounded in this growing inability to see God's image in even the "worst". Instead of mourning the loss of life, we say things like "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". The problem is, IMO, that we see many of these rationalizations infect the church to the point that even ministers embrace an "ends justify the means" mindset.

It's also why I hold organizations like the Consistent Life Network in such high regard. It's a consistent pro-life ethic that isn't just centered on one aspect of life (unborn).
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
Sapper Redux
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Violence has gone down over the centuries. Human life was extremely cheap during the era when religion dictated almost every aspect of life. What we have is more focus and publicity on violence. But we aren't seeing mobs lynching people in the town square or random groups of people murdering women and children because they were Indians, etc.
Dad-O-Lot
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Dr. Watson said:

Violence has gone down over the centuries. Human life was extremely cheap during the era when religion dictated almost every aspect of life. What we have is more focus and publicity on violence. But we aren't seeing mobs lynching people in the town square or random groups of people murdering women and children because they were Indians, etc.
Yes, I considered this. This is why I compared against the "relatively recent" past.

I believe Western Society was marked by an increase in respect for human life up until the mid-20th century. I am not sure what caused the change, but it seems that that respect for the sanctity of human life has since diminished. I have some theories, but not enough knowledge of the subject to defend them or discuss them at much length.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Sapper Redux
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The same mid-20th century that saw WWII, the Holocaust, the Soviets, Maoism, lynchings, etc? I tend to disagree. Life has become much more important since that war with the formation of things like the UN (not arguing for their effectiveness, just the sentiment behind their formation).
Dad-O-Lot
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Dr. Watson said:

The same mid-20th century that saw WWII, the Holocaust, the Soviets, Maoism, lynchings, etc? I tend to disagree. Life has become much more important since that war with the formation of things like the UN (not arguing for their effectiveness, just the sentiment behind their formation).
WWII and the holocaust are linked. lynchings etc... are all related to "capacity" to kill certain sub-groups of humanity that some people believe are not worthy of protection. I think they meld right in with the OP.

The reason they are considered as black marks in history is precisely because the greater society now recognizes those people as having been worthy of protection that they did not get.

That doesn't negate the belief that when any one subset of humanity is considered not worthy of life by the larger society, some individuals may then feel justified to just add to that. They may not think if it in precisely those terms, but it may make it easier to justify in their own minds.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Sapper Redux
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I enjoy it when the politics board flunkies go ad hominem. It means they have nothing else.
Sapper Redux
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My point is that human life is considered more valuable now, which is why attacks against groups that were accepted marks for punishment for centuries are now so unpopular.
Dad-O-Lot
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Jamaal Charles talks good said:

which community college do you teach at again? would i be able to audit your course online?
Is this addressed towards me?

Was it an attempt at humor?

I'm just a Dad and an engineer who might talk philosophy while drinking a beer or three.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Repeat the Line
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Dad-O-Lot said:

Jamaal Charles talks good said:

which community college do you teach at again? would i be able to audit your course online?
Is this addressed towards me?

Was it an attempt at humor?

I'm just a Dad and an engineer who might talk philosophy while drinking a beer or three.
no and no
Dad-O-Lot
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Dr. Watson said:

My point is that human life is considered more valuable now, which is why attacks against groups that were accepted marks for punishment for centuries are now so unpopular.
I think there are examples in both directions.

Perhaps more support for protection of many identifiable groups which were unprotected in the past, but less support for at least a couple of other groups and less protection of individuals. The latter may be a symptom of a society becoming jaded because of the ability to hear and read about so many deaths that in the past we would not have known about.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Sapper Redux
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Dad-O-Lot said:

Jamaal Charles talks good said:

which community college do you teach at again? would i be able to audit your course online?
Is this addressed towards me?

Was it an attempt at humor?

I'm just a Dad and an engineer who might talk philosophy while drinking a beer or three.


It was addressed to me. It's the go-to move for certain conservatives on this board who don't like to argue the issues.
Repeat the Line
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i cannot audit your course?
Sapper Redux
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Jamaal Charles talks good said:

i cannot audit your course?


You can't form a proper sentence with proper punctuation. Try a GED course first.
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Sapper Redux
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Pretty sure
Zobel
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You need to draw a distinction between religions. Lumping all of them together is about as logical as lumping all cultures together. The value of human life and even who counts as human has varied within religions and cultures wildly.
Frok
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I thought the OP was speaking more about individuals who mass murder rather than corrupt governments or political/religious groups. It's much easier to understand why the latter groups do what they do.
swimmerbabe11
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Do you think that the rise of individual "mass murders" is possibly related to life being more valuable? There aren't as many avenues for someone with bloodlust to legally fulfill those needs?

I read a hypothesis somewhere that the number of serial killers has gone down, while shooters have risen. They attributed this to social media addiction and wanting immediate fame and notoriety.
Dad-O-Lot
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Do you think that the rise of individual "mass murders" is possibly related to life being more valuable? There aren't as many avenues for someone with bloodlust to legally fulfill those needs?
I don't think so. It speaks to what I was calling the "capacity" for murder. I wasn't addressing motive so much as having a conscience which would allow one to take the life of another human being. If someone wants to kill other people, then all they really need otherwise is the capability and the opportunity. I don't think people would be more likely to want to kill other people because their "value" has risen. If they do, then they already had the capacity and just found a reason.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
swimmerbabe11
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Right, what I'm saying is people with that capacity used to have more avenues to do so in a more sanctioned way. Mercenary, soldier, Hunter, etc.
AGC
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Dr. Watson said:

My point is that human life is considered more valuable now, which is why attacks against groups that were accepted marks for punishment for centuries are now so unpopular.


How so? Many "academics" remain silent on the issue of white genocide (though some not so), including Coates. That's not indicative of considering human life more valuable and I think contributes to DoL's argument.

Further, the idea of a society valuing human life and promoting or compelling pro-abortion speech is completely contradictory. Western Europeans consider killing a child with down's perfectly acceptable, as some Asian cultures do to female children.
Dad-O-Lot
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Right, what I'm saying is people with that capacity used to have more avenues to do so in a more sanctioned way. Mercenary, soldier, Hunter, etc.
I would consider those other avenues part of the "opportunity" part of the equation.

On second thought, it may address the "capacity" part as well if you consider that it gives them freedom to "dehumanize" their victims as "the enemy". They may not have the capacity to kill an "innocent" person, but they can rationalize killing an "enemy".
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Sapper Redux
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AGC said:

Dr. Watson said:

My point is that human life is considered more valuable now, which is why attacks against groups that were accepted marks for punishment for centuries are now so unpopular.


How so? Many "academics" remain silent on the issue of white genocide (though some not so), including Coates. That's not indicative of considering human life more valuable and I think contributes to DoL's argument.

Further, the idea of a society valuing human life and promoting or compelling pro-abortion speech is completely contradictory. Western Europeans consider killing a child with down's perfectly acceptable, as some Asian cultures do to female children.


White genocide? Can we at least use something really happening as an example? And abortion is not new. It has been permitted to some extent for most of history.
Repeat the Line
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watson do you raise awareness at your college about the millions killed in the name of Allah? I bet you do.
Doc Daneeka
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White people are evil.
Sapper Redux
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Jamaal Charles talks good said:

watson do you raise awareness at your college about the millions killed in the name of Allah? I bet you do.


I don't cover Islamic history. I study and teach early American history.
AGC
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Dr. Watson said:

AGC said:

Dr. Watson said:

My point is that human life is considered more valuable now, which is why attacks against groups that were accepted marks for punishment for centuries are now so unpopular.


How so? Many "academics" remain silent on the issue of white genocide (though some not so), including Coates. That's not indicative of considering human life more valuable and I think contributes to DoL's argument.

Further, the idea of a society valuing human life and promoting or compelling pro-abortion speech is completely contradictory. Western Europeans consider killing a child with down's perfectly acceptable, as some Asian cultures do to female children.


White genocide? Can we at least use something really happening as an example? And abortion is not new. It has been permitted to some extent for most of history.


I don't see much to respond to, other than to point out that I was contesting your idea that human life is considered more valuable now. If we were on the other side of abolishing abortion, or didn't have people discussing a context in which it's ok to kill someone because of their skin color, it would be easier to see. I'm skeptical of your position and think the null hypothesis is that the perception of the value of human life has not changed as a whole.
Sapper Redux
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We don't have whole political systems built on separating and/or killing people based on their skin color. And we have less war and death now than at any point in history. As for abortion, that's existed through all of human history and is contested.
Dad-O-Lot
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Dr. Watson said:

We don't have whole political systems built on separating and/or killing people based on their skin color. And we have less war and death now than at any point in history. As for abortion, that's existed through all of human history and is contested.
I believe that much of the Democrat platform IS built on separating people based on their skin color, their sex, their sexual preferences, and any other item they can use to separate "us" versus "them".

As we learn more about fetal development, it becomes more and more clear that those unborn children ARE human life. When a major political party supports the ability to kill that unborn child with no restrictions up to birth, then people start to see a blurred line between human life worthy of protection and not.

This is most visible in the instances of infanticide, but it is just one more instance of "capacity". The capacity to kill someone who they don't believe should have the right to life.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Sapper Redux
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Doesn't sound like we have much common ground to have a discussion on.
Dad-O-Lot
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Dr. Watson said:

Doesn't sound like we have much common ground to have a discussion on.
I don't know. I think we probably do.

We may not agree much on the relative importance of some history, or on the motivations of mass murderers, but I think there probably are things we can agree on.

Would you accept my premise on the need for capacity, capability, and opportunity to all be in place for someone to intentionally kill?

If so, then on a case-by-case basis we could discuss which of these might be the more effective to address.

If someone has the capacity and the capability to kill, but no opportunity, no one is killed.

If someone has the capability and the opportunity to kill, but not the capacity, no one is killed.

If someone has the capacity and the opportunity, but not the capability, no one is killed.

Capability and opportunity are the easier ones, I believe, to understand.

Capacity, however is much more fluid. The "crime of passion" in which someone who normally "wouldn't hurt a fly" kills someone out of rage. The sociopath who considers everyone in only a utilitarian way. If you can't do anything for him, he doesn't care whether you live or die. The person who becomes convinced that the only way to protect himself is to kill someone - whether true or not. Capacity is the one that relies more on those things you can't see or quantify. A person's mindset.
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Doc Daneeka
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As an Non white I think white people are too blame for most things. And I agree with Watson.
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