A Jew in 35AD

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agie95
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AG
Many of you proclaim that what I bring forth from the Bible isn't true. Well here is your chance...

Let's suppose this is approx. 35AD and I am a Jew, who through Kefa's speech in Acts, accepted Yeshua as the Messiah.

At that time, the only Bible that existed was the Torah and the Prophets. There would also have been the oral tradition as well as the words of the Messiah.

You can't use Paul b/c he wasn't even a "believer" at this time. It would be another approx 15 years before Paul starts his ministry and 20+ years before Paul writes a letter. This doesn't mean you can't use his points, but you have to some how connect his points with what was written in the Torah and the Prophets. Everything Paul said was checked in the written Scripture at that time by the Bereans. If a point of Paul is brought up, but no connection with the Scriptures in existence at the time, I will ignore.

Using what the Messiah had to show them all about Him, convince me that Christianity was/is THE Faith. Convince me only the so-called moral commandments are supposed to be kept. Convince me that when God said that His commandments were forever that He really didn't mean forever. Convert me to Christianity. I am not needing to be convinced that Yeshua is the Messiah, but that what Christianity is today is the true path.

I will reply to any legitimate points made. If I suspect the reply is not within the true intention of this thread, I will just ignore. I am not necessarily wanting to discuss the meaning specific verses as we typically do, but wanting to look at God's plan from the viewpoint of the forest.

Upfront, I will even give you my main go to verses of why Judaism I won't stray from Judaism as a Jew in 35AD. So, in your convincing, you will have to overcome the passages below. This is not to say I won't use others though.

Hopefully, someone is up for a real discussion.

Deuteronomy 12:32-13:4 (in your Bible) - "Whatever I command you, you must take care to doyou are not to add to it or take away from it. 2 "Suppose a prophet or a dreamer of dreams rises up among you and gives you a sign or wonder, 3 and the sign or wonder he spoke to you comes true, while saying, 'Let's follow other gods'that you have not known, and'Let's serve them!' 4 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreamsfor Adonai your God is testing you, to find out whether you love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 Adonai your God you will follow and Him you will fear. His mitzvot you will keep, to His voice you will listen, Him you will serve and to Him you will cling.

You have to know from a Jewish viewpoint, that loving and serving God is following the commandments. Every time that loving God is mentioned in the Torah, it says to follow the commandments. Just like 2 John 1:6 says. As a Jew, I see salvation as trusting God thereby following His ways.

Ezekiel 36:26-28 - Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My laws, so you will keep My rulings and do them. 28 Then you will live in the land that I gave to your fathers. You will be My people and I will be your God.

The role of the Holy Spirit - Ruach HaKodesh.

Jeremiah 31:30,32-33 "Behold, days are coming"it is a declaration of Adonai"when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days"it is a declaration of Adonai"I will put My Torah within them.
Yes, I will write it on their heart. I will be their God and they will be My people. 33 No longer will each teach his neighbor or each his brother, saying: 'Know Adonai,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest." it is a declaration of Adonai. "For I will forgive their iniquity, their sin I will remember no more."

I will mainly use this passage to dispel the notion that the Torah is not part of this covenant.


Jeremiah 31:34-36 - Thus says Adonai, who gives the sun as a light by day and the fixed order of the moon
and the stars as a light by night, who stirs up the sea so its waves roar, Adonai-Tzva'ot is His Name:
35 "Only if this fixed order departs from before Me"it is a declaration of Adonai"then also might Israel's offspring cease from being a nation before Mefor all time." 36 Thus says Adonai:"Only if heaven above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then also I will cast off the offspring of Israelfor all they have done." It is a declaration of Adonai.

I will use this passage to dispel supersessionism/replacement theology.

Matthew 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I will use this to show that Messiah did not teach to do away with some of the commandments. Until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or serif shall pass away. I will also use the Messiah's use of the Shema.


PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

Hopefully, someone is up for a real discussion.
The problem is that based on your past history, what you call "discussion", you actually mean you want to preach at people and accuse them of not loving God if they disagree with you. I get it, I've struggled with that kind of arrogance and abrasiveness before. It makes fruitful discussion virtually impossible, though.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
Aggrad08
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AG
If you are looking for a cut and dry transition or theology you won't find it. Not even the jews who rejected jesus were in theological agreement. If you are a jew in 35 AD are you a pharisee,a Sadducee, are you an Essene out at qumran, maybe one of the insurrectionist sect that wan't to pick a bone with rome?
agie95
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AG
That is a problem.

Since Yeshua was considered a Pharisee by the Pharisees, I am a Pharisee.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Aggrad08 said:

maybe one of the insurrectionist sect that wan't to pick a bone with rome?

The Peoples Front of Judea or the Judean Peoples Front?
Doc Daneeka
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Give us their bible names and stop changing names. If you really want to present US with a hypo.

Got to Kefa and stopped...

Jesus is the ONLY way. Hth
agie95
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AG
Kefa is his Bible name...

But Kefa, having stood with the Achad Asar, lifted up his voice and declared to them, "Anashim Yehudim! And the ones inhabiting Yerushalayim, have da'as of all this and be goires (listen to) my dvarim: Acts 2:14

Prove that Jesus is the only....I don't think you can.
craigernaught
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Quote:

That is a problem.

Since Yeshua was considered a Pharisee by the Pharisees, I am a Pharisee.
Wait, are you a Galilean Jew from agrarian villages who often adhered to the popular/little traditions of Judaism rather than the royal/high traditions of temple dominated Jerusalem? Or are you a Pharisee from Judea who were called "loose interpreters" by the Qumran community? Maybe you're a Hellenized Jew who is trying to fit Judaism into a vastly different cultural context because you have a vastly different economic and philosophical origin?

One of the issues for Jesus followers is the mess and disunity that was Judaism around 35 AD. It can't even be accurately referred to as a single religion. Herod, the Herodians, the Pharisees, the Essenes, various political dissidents, the Galileans, the Samaritans, Hellenized Jews, and the vast Jewish diaspora cannot reasonably be said to follow the same religion. Even when we reconstruct it now it's unnaturally neat and tidy. Labels like "Pharisee" and "Zealot" can be useful historical terms (but often are just misleading anachronisms), but lets not pretend that they accurately describe what Judaism actually was.

Whenever I see appeals to "obvious interpretations" of the Hebrew Bible, I don't know what to think. They couldn't agree on it then, yet it's supposed to be plain for us to see now? I doubt you could convince me what these terms are supposed to mean in their historical context. If we can't agree on terms, or even be confident in their meaning, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to convince a hypothetical 35 AD Jew of anything.

Edit: The Pharisees were called "smooth interpreters" by the Qumran community, not "loose interpreters". I remembered incorrectly. The charge, however, is the same. They weren't strict interpreters and would smooth things over for their benefit.
7thGenTexan
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AG
craigernaught said:

Quote:

That is a problem.

Since Yeshua was considered a Pharisee by the Pharisees, I am a Pharisee.
Wait, are you a Galilean Jew from agrarian villages who often adhered to the popular/little traditions of Judaism rather than the royal/high traditions of temple dominated Jerusalem? Or are you a Pharisee from Judea who were called "loose interpreters" by the Qumran community? Maybe you're a Hellenized Jew who is trying to fit Judaism into a vastly different cultural context because you have a vastly different economic and philosophical origin?

One of the issues for Jesus followers is the mess and disunity that was Judaism around 35 AD. It can't even be accurately referred to as a single religion. Herod, the Herodians, the Pharisees, the Essenes, various political dissidents, the Galileans, the Samaritans, Hellenized Jews, and the vast Jewish diaspora cannot reasonably be said to follow the same religion. Even when we reconstruct it now it's unnaturally neat and tidy. Labels like "Pharisee" and "Zealot" can be useful historical terms (but often are just misleading anachronisms), but lets not pretend that they accurately describe what Judaism actually was.

Whenever I see appeals to "obvious interpretations" of the Hebrew Bible, I don't know what to think. They couldn't agree on it then, yet it's supposed to be plain for us to see now? I doubt you could convince me what these terms are supposed to mean in their historical context. If we can't agree on terms, or even be confident in their meaning, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to convince a hypothetical 35 AD Jew of anything.
Edit: Meant to reply to OP.

Kefa said:

Quote:

1 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
AgLiving06
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agie95 said:

That is a problem.

Since Yeshua was considered a Pharisee by the Pharisees, I am a Pharisee.

I don't think this holds.

We can argue about whether Jesus was a Pharisee, but if what the Gospels say occurred in that way, I highly doubt the followers of Jesus were Pharisees.

I have a feeling they wouldn't rejoin with a group that helped facilitate the death of Jesus.

They'd probably be called something else for following the one they call the Christ...maybe Christians...
opk
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Pharisee:
"a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity.
  • a self-righteous person; a hypocrite.
craigernaught
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AG
The Pharisees did not strictly follow written law. Qumran, Josephus, and Jesus all criticized them for not following it.
dermdoc
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If I am not mistaken, have not you already been baptized as a Christian and you rejected Christ as your Savior? Why set up this straw man as it is obvious you have already decided who you worship?
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Doc Daneeka
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He has rejected God.
agie95
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AgLiving06 said:

agie95 said:

That is a problem.

Since Yeshua was considered a Pharisee by the Pharisees, I am a Pharisee.

I don't think this holds.

We can argue about whether Jesus was a Pharisee, but if what the Gospels say occurred in that way, I highly doubt the followers of Jesus were Pharisees.

I have a feeling they wouldn't rejoin with a group that helped facilitate the death of Jesus.

They'd probably be called something else for following the one they call the Christ...maybe Christians...
Let's go with what is written over feelings.

Acts 2:22-24 - "Men of Israel, hear these words! Yeshua ha-Natzratia Man authenticated to you by God with mighty deeds and wonders and signs God performed through Him in your midst, as you yourselves know 23 this Yeshua, given over by God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge, nailed to the cross by the hand of lawless men, you killed.

Here Peter says He was nailed to the execution stake by the hand of lawless men, who are the lawless men can be argued. The next point can't, you killed. Peter is speaking to Jews and to those around in Jerusalem and says you killed. Their are different ways of looking at you killed. You killed through your sin. You killed b/c it was you who wanted Him to be executed.

Acts 2 37:40 - Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the emissaries, "Fellow brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be immersed in the name of Messiah Yeshua for the removal of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh. 39 For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far awayas many as Adonai our God calls to Himself."
40 With many other words he warned them and kept urging them, saying, "Save yourselves from this twisted generation!" 41 So those who received his message were immersed, and that day about three thousand souls were added.

These Jews, who killed Yeshua, repented. Three thousand of them.

While Christianity abhors anything Pharisee, it was Yeshua who ate with them. Pharisees only ate with other Pharisees. They were overly concerned about purity during those days and wouldn't think of eating in a non-Pharisee house. Hence Peter, not willing to go to a Gentile's house in Acts 10.....That is interesting isn't it. Peter was concerned about going to a Gentiles house....pretty Pharisee of him.

Paul calls himself a Pharisee throughout his ministry. Even late in his defense he still calls himself a Pharisee.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

Christian was a derogatory word at first. They were called Nazarenes, a sect, etc.






agie95
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AG
Not one person can convince me to follow Christianity (what it is today) based on the Torah, Prophets or the Gospels?
dermdoc
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So do you believe in the Holy Spirit? And the Trinity?
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agie95
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Do I believe in the Holy Spirit? Of course.

Do I believe in the Trinity? That God is a three-in-one.....three distinct God's in one. No. That is pagan. Do I believe God can manifest Himself anyway He chooses? Yes.
AgLiving06
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agie95 said:

AgLiving06 said:

agie95 said:

That is a problem.

Since Yeshua was considered a Pharisee by the Pharisees, I am a Pharisee.

I don't think this holds.

We can argue about whether Jesus was a Pharisee, but if what the Gospels say occurred in that way, I highly doubt the followers of Jesus were Pharisees.

I have a feeling they wouldn't rejoin with a group that helped facilitate the death of Jesus.

They'd probably be called something else for following the one they call the Christ...maybe Christians...
Let's go with what is written over feelings.

Acts 2:22-24 - "Men of Israel, hear these words! Yeshua ha-Natzratia Man authenticated to you by God with mighty deeds and wonders and signs God performed through Him in your midst, as you yourselves know 23 this Yeshua, given over by God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge, nailed to the cross by the hand of lawless men, you killed.

Here Peter says He was nailed to the execution stake by the hand of lawless men, who are the lawless men can be argued. The next point can't, you killed. Peter is speaking to Jews and to those around in Jerusalem and says you killed. Their are different ways of looking at you killed. You killed through your sin. You killed b/c it was you who wanted Him to be executed.

Acts 2 37:40 - Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the emissaries, "Fellow brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be immersed in the name of Messiah Yeshua for the removal of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh. 39 For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far awayas many as Adonai our God calls to Himself."
40 With many other words he warned them and kept urging them, saying, "Save yourselves from this twisted generation!" 41 So those who received his message were immersed, and that day about three thousand souls were added.

These Jews, who killed Yeshua, repented. Three thousand of them.

While Christianity abhors anything Pharisee, it was Yeshua who ate with them. Pharisees only ate with other Pharisees. They were overly concerned about purity during those days and wouldn't think of eating in a non-Pharisee house. Hence Peter, not willing to go to a Gentile's house in Acts 10.....That is interesting isn't it. Peter was concerned about going to a Gentiles house....pretty Pharisee of him.

Paul calls himself a Pharisee throughout his ministry. Even late in his defense he still calls himself a Pharisee.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

Christian was a derogatory word at first. They were called Nazarenes, a sect, etc.








But as you point out in your OP, Paul is irrelevant at this time. That came 15 years later. What Paul claimed for different reasons could be the subject of a different discussion. You were clear that was irrelevant.

Jesus did far more than just eat with the Pharisees though, In Mark 12, He tells them via parable that they will kill him. And the Pharisees understood exactly what he said.

Peter was concerned about visiting Gentile homes, and he was thoroughly rebuked for that though. How very non-pharisee.



agie95
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AG





You can't comprehend what I said, but you think you can Paul's writings?

I said you cannot convince me to be a Christian according to today's standards with Paul's writings. I am making a point about Pharisees. Learn to read!

Mark 12 is not just Pharisees....the ruling kohanim, Torah scholars, and elders come up to Him. Were Pharisees included in this group? No doubt, but let's get real.

Rebuked? In Peter's vision, he is perplexed. Yeshua never told them to go to Gentiles homes. Yeshua didn't go to Gentiles homes. In fact, Yeshua referenced gentiles as dogs:

And answering, He said, "It's not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." Matthew 15:26.


agie95
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Seriously? No one can convince me, a Jew who believes Yeshua is the Messiah, to abandon Torah and live like a Christian with what they had available in the 30's?

Acts 17:10-12 - As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas to Berea. Upon arrival, they made their way to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, because they received the message with goodwill, searching the Scriptures each day to see whether these things were true. 12 Therefore many of them believed, as well as quite a few prominent Greek women and men.

Come on. This should be easy if Christianity is the way. The Bereans were not even using the oral testimony of Yeshua. They strictly went on the Torah and the Prophets based on the text.


PacifistAg
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AG

“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
AgLiving06
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agie95 said:






You can't comprehend what I said, but you think you can Paul's writings?

I said you cannot convince me to be a Christian according to today's standards with Paul's writings. I am making a point about Pharisees. Learn to read!

Mark 12 is not just Pharisees....the ruling kohanim, Torah scholars, and elders come up to Him. Were Pharisees included in this group? No doubt, but let's get real.

Rebuked? In Peter's vision, he is perplexed. Yeshua never told them to go to Gentiles homes. Yeshua didn't go to Gentiles homes. In fact, Yeshua referenced gentiles as dogs:

And answering, He said, "It's not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." Matthew 15:26.




Wow. What an incredibly arrogant response.

Certainly not worth my time to read any further.

Have a good day and God Bless.
LevelAg
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What do you think Paul and Silas were teaching in Acts 17 that needed to be confirmed with scripture?
agie95
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AG
The beginning of the chapter said about the Messiah.
LevelAg
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They were telling these people in the synagogue about Jesus and declaring him to be the Messiah. I agree. These Jews were then looking through the scriptures to confirm what Paul was telling them.

They had to know the scriptures well enough to search certain books since the Torah wasn't put together they way we have it in our bibles today, right? They are believers in God since they're at the synagogue. They know Torah.

So, Paul is convincing them that Jesus is the Messiah. This is what Jesus tells him (and all the disciples) to do.

Matthew 28:19-20 NASB "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

This says that they are first to make disciples, second baptize them, and then teach them to observe all that Jesus commanded. This is the order Jesus gave them. If he were simply giving the Torah, why would they need to be taught to observe the commands of Jesus AFTER believing in him?

These Jews were already observing Torah. They knew Torah. They were searching the Torah. Surely, the disciples were expected to teach something new by Jesus for these Jews if they needed to believe in Jesus as Messiah and choose to follow him BEFORE they could be taught the commands of Jesus. Otherwise, the belief in Jesus would be the culmination of their belief system - not the beginning. The instructions of Jesus indicate it is the beginning of their belief system.




Aggie4Life02
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AG
agie95 said:

Many of you proclaim that what I bring forth from the Bible isn't true. Well here is your chance...

Let's suppose this is approx. 35AD and I am a Jew, who through Kefa's speech in Acts, accepted Yeshua as the Messiah.

At that time, the only Bible that existed was the Torah and the Prophets. There would also have been the oral tradition as well as the words of the Messiah.

You can't use Paul b/c he wasn't even a "believer" at this time. It would be another approx 15 years before Paul starts his ministry and 20+ years before Paul writes a letter. This doesn't mean you can't use his points, but you have to some how connect his points with what was written in the Torah and the Prophets. Everything Paul said was checked in the written Scripture at that time by the Bereans. If a point of Paul is brought up, but no connection with the Scriptures in existence at the time, I will ignore.

Using what the Messiah had to show them all about Him, convince me that Christianity was/is THE Faith. Convince me only the so-called moral commandments are supposed to be kept. Convince me that when God said that His commandments were forever that He really didn't mean forever. Convert me to Christianity. I am not needing to be convinced that Yeshua is the Messiah, but that what Christianity is today is the true path.

I will reply to any legitimate points made. If I suspect the reply is not within the true intention of this thread, I will just ignore. I am not necessarily wanting to discuss the meaning specific verses as we typically do, but wanting to look at God's plan from the viewpoint of the forest.

Upfront, I will even give you my main go to verses of why Judaism I won't stray from Judaism as a Jew in 35AD. So, in your convincing, you will have to overcome the passages below. This is not to say I won't use others though.

Hopefully, someone is up for a real discussion.

Deuteronomy 12:32-13:4 (in your Bible) - "Whatever I command you, you must take care to doyou are not to add to it or take away from it. 2 "Suppose a prophet or a dreamer of dreams rises up among you and gives you a sign or wonder, 3 and the sign or wonder he spoke to you comes true, while saying, 'Let's follow other gods'that you have not known, and'Let's serve them!' 4 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreamsfor Adonai your God is testing you, to find out whether you love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 Adonai your God you will follow and Him you will fear. His mitzvot you will keep, to His voice you will listen, Him you will serve and to Him you will cling.

You have to know from a Jewish viewpoint, that loving and serving God is following the commandments. Every time that loving God is mentioned in the Torah, it says to follow the commandments. Just like 2 John 1:6 says. As a Jew, I see salvation as trusting God thereby following His ways.

Ezekiel 36:26-28 - Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My laws, so you will keep My rulings and do them. 28 Then you will live in the land that I gave to your fathers. You will be My people and I will be your God.

The role of the Holy Spirit - Ruach HaKodesh.

Jeremiah 31:30,32-33 "Behold, days are coming"it is a declaration of Adonai"when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days"it is a declaration of Adonai"I will put My Torah within them.
Yes, I will write it on their heart. I will be their God and they will be My people. 33 No longer will each teach his neighbor or each his brother, saying: 'Know Adonai,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest." it is a declaration of Adonai. "For I will forgive their iniquity, their sin I will remember no more."

I will mainly use this passage to dispel the notion that the Torah is not part of this covenant.


Jeremiah 31:34-36 - Thus says Adonai, who gives the sun as a light by day and the fixed order of the moon
and the stars as a light by night, who stirs up the sea so its waves roar, Adonai-Tzva'ot is His Name:
35 "Only if this fixed order departs from before Me"it is a declaration of Adonai"then also might Israel's offspring cease from being a nation before Mefor all time." 36 Thus says Adonai:"Only if heaven above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then also I will cast off the offspring of Israelfor all they have done." It is a declaration of Adonai.

I will use this passage to dispel supersessionism/replacement theology.

Matthew 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I will use this to show that Messiah did not teach to do away with some of the commandments. Until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or serif shall pass away. I will also use the Messiah's use of the Shema.





It's an illegitimate challenge. The New Covenant began at the Last Supper, but the Old Covenant did not end until 70AD with the destruction of the temple. The time in between, Jesus was building the foundation of His Church on the Apostles. The foundation wasn't complete at 35 AD. Part of that foundation are the teachings of Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. that weren't codified completely until 70AD.
agie95
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AG
LevelAg said:

They were telling these people in the synagogue about Jesus and declaring him to be the Messiah. I agree. These Jews were then looking through the scriptures to confirm what Paul was telling them.

They had to know the scriptures well enough to search certain books since the Torah wasn't put together they way we have it in our bibles today, right? They are believers in God since they're at the synagogue. They know Torah.

So, Paul is convincing them that Jesus is the Messiah. This is what Jesus tells him (and all the disciples) to do.

Matthew 28:19-20 NASB "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

This says that they are first to make disciples, second baptize them, and then teach them to observe all that Jesus commanded. This is the order Jesus gave them. If he were simply giving the Torah, why would they need to be taught to observe the commands of Jesus AFTER believing in him?

These Jews were already observing Torah. They knew Torah. They were searching the Torah. Surely, the disciples were expected to teach something new by Jesus for these Jews if they needed to believe in Jesus as Messiah and choose to follow him BEFORE they could be taught the commands of Jesus. Otherwise, the belief in Jesus would be the culmination of their belief system - not the beginning. The instructions of Jesus indicate it is the beginning of their belief system.




I don't see the Matthew verse as a list of 3 things. baptizing them and teaching them all that I command is making a disciple. A disciple is one who follows everything, knows everything from their teacher. They would be able to finish their teacher's sentence they know their teachers position so well.


Quote:



If he were simply giving the Torah, why would they need to be taught to observe the commands of Jesus AFTER believing in him?
I don't understand what you are getting at, so please help me understand. Where were the disciples (Peter, John, etc) being taught the Torah in this passage?

Where in this passage is it even being taught to "believe in Jesus"?

Where does it say they were expected to teach something new?

Beginning of their belief system? For Jews, it is not a belief system. It is their life. I am not following here...


agie95
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AG
Quote:



It's an illegitimate challenge. The New Covenant began at the Last Supper, but the Old Covenant did not end until 70AD with the destruction of the temple. The time in between, Jesus was building the foundation of His Church on the Apostles. The foundation wasn't complete at 35 AD. Part of that foundation are the teachings of Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. that weren't codified completely until 70AD.
The "old covenant" ended? Has the "new covenant" actually begun or at least been completed yet? The foundation is the church and the apostles?

You say all this but bring no support. Again, you can bring what Paul said, but you have to back it up with actual Scripture. You brought none. So how can I believe what you are saying?

So the foundation is the teachings of Peter, Paul, James, and John were codified completely until 70AD?

Most believe nothing John wrote came until the 90's. So we need to adjust what was already codified...

Remove the Gospel of John, all three of his epistles, and Revelation. Most believe Jude was after 70 as well.

I have never heard the "New Testatement" was codified prior to or in 70AD. Do you have support for this?






LevelAg
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Luke 6:13 NASB And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:

If disciples were as you described, please explain how Jesus calls his followers disciples when they had no idea what he was doing most of the time, much less be able to finish his sentences.



I was speaking of teaching the Torah to the Jews in Berea, not the apostles.

All our lives are built on belief systems. Every one of us.
agie95
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AG
LevelAg said:

Luke 6:13 NASB And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:

If disciples were as you described, please explain how Jesus calls his followers disciples when they had no idea what he was doing most of the time, much less be able to finish his sentences.



I was speaking of teaching the Torah to the Jews in Berea, not the apostles.

All our lives are built on belief systems. Every one of us.

When a disciple first joins His teacher, he has to start. I was explaining someone who was a disciple for some length of time.


You have totally lost me on the Torah, thing. He was showing them about the Messiah in the Torah and the Prophets. The Messiah who is the Torah made flesh. The One who all sacrifices point to including the Akeidah.

Judaism is a life, not a belief system. Religions in the east are generally ones life, not just some belief system. That is a western, Greek mindset.

I really have yet to see how this relates to me, a Jew in 35AD to drop Torah for Christianity.
LevelAg
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Quote:

When a disciple first joins His teacher, he has to start. I was explaining someone who was a disciple for some length of time.
You mean like someone who decides to become a disciple, gets baptized, then learns all about the teachings of their leader so that they can truly follow them? Like I just described Matthew 28:19-20 a couple of posts up?

Seriously, you're not even trying to listen. You just re-stated my argument above that you disregarded earlier as improperly describing a disciple.
agie95
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I truly am trying to figure out what you said. What you said in your original post does not make sense to me. That is what I am trying to clarify.
LevelAg
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I don't see the Matthew verse as a list of 3 things. baptizing them and teaching them all that I command is making a disciple. A disciple is one who follows everything, knows everything from their teacher. They would be able to finish their teacher's sentence they know their teachers position so well.

Quote:

When a disciple first joins His teacher, he has to start. I was explaining someone who was a disciple for some length of time.

Quote:

Matthew 28:19-20 NASB "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

This says that they are first to make disciples, second baptize them, and then teach them to observe all that Jesus commanded. This is the order Jesus gave them.

agie95
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Still not one Christian can show from the Torah or the Prophets that the current Christian life is what God intended?

If you can, I will not post one more thing on Torah and convert back to Christianity.

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