Cortez- Aztecs- Montezuma

1,453 Views | 18 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by booboo91
booboo91
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Since we are discussing history: Reading few good books on subject of Aztecs, they were conquered roughly 500 years ago year. 1519. Corts and Montezuma Maurice Collis, this based off first hand account "The Conquest of New Spain" translated Bernaz Diaz del Castillo:

1) Cortez talented military & political leader (people person), religious- held mass all the time, interested in conversion of souls at same time pursuit of fame and fortune/mistress. Very much a mixed bag. Unlike the English dealing with Indians- Spanish converted and married them, quickly integrated with them.

2) Aztecs in 1500s still performed human sacrifice. Very superstitious, offer human sacrifice all the time. Interesting tidbits:
  • They had no metal arms, no wheels, and no arch in architecture. But society very organized, great sculpting ability.
  • Mel Gibson's Apocalypto movie is somewhat accurate. They would have as many as up to 40-80K human sacrifices in a day. Cut out beating heart to keep the god's happy. They preyed on the neighboring weaker tribes.
  • They tried to maim instead of kill enemy- want to sacrifice them

3) I find the story of Quetzalcoatl fascinating, he is like a Jesus that came to them centuries before and they rejected his teaching of love. It kind of answers the atheist questions- what if people have never heard of Jesus. My 2 cents answer - God will provide a way, he writes right and wrong in our hearts, he sends people into our lives.

booboo91
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There were (2) primary gods, one was good and one was bad. Interesting how all of society has this notion? See how they reject the good God and accept the bad God that demands human sacrifice. The Jesus god promises his return. And just like divine providence in the year 1519- Cortez appears.

1) Among the many deities were two of more importance than the rest. Tezcatlipoca (the Mirror that Smokes) was king of the gods, and associated with the night sky. He had another aspect when he was referred to as Uitzilopochtli (The Humming Bird of the Left). In this form he was the war god, a far more terrible god than the Roman Mars, and required hecatombs of victims if he were to continue to give victory. This premier god in his two forms was the especial guardian of the Mexican tribe. He had watched over it from the beginning and made it the great imperial power which it had become. Its prosperity and continuance were peculiarly linked with him.

2) The second principal god was Quetzalcoatl (The Feathered Serpent). This was the god referred to above as the great teacher who had declared against human sacrifice. It was believed that in a remote past he had descended from heaven and taking mortal form had, as a priest-king, preached against the great tribal god. But Tezcatlipoca (Smoking Mirror) had succeeded in driving him out. He embarked on a magic raft on the coast near Tabasco and departed to an unknown region in the East. But before going he had uttered a prophecy: 'I will return in a One Reed year and re-establish my rule. It will be a time of great tribulation for the people.' This utterance was taken to mean that when he returned he would destroy the guardian god and punish the people for having abetted his expulsion. One Reed year occured at irregular intervals. The year 1363 had been a One Reed; so had the year 1467. Quetzalcoatl had not come on either of these years. The next One Reed year was 1519, the year we have now reached in this story.

At just the right time, Good Friday in 1519 Cortez shows up and eventually does what Quetzalcoatl foretold. Incredible timing.
booboo91
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Cortez very dedicated to our lady- Virgin Mary. Shortly after 1519 in 1531 miracle of our lady of guadalupe resulted in mass conversions of millions to Christian (Catholic Faith) in rapid time period. Our Lady of guadalupe

Drastic transformation of society from human sacrifice to Jesus as lord and savior. would say this is what Quetzalcoatl wanted (ending of human sacrifice).


So many cool things about this image not only how long it has survived but also all the little hidden symbolism, images in her eyes, musical cords built into it, matching up with map of Mexico key features. For me the cool thing is if you really think about, this is one artifact we have that was made by God that there is not issue about authenticity. Unlike the Shroud of Turin, this image has been in hands of the church the entire time, no issue about carbon dating.
Sapper Redux
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You may want to read up on what priests like de las Casas thought about Cortes before holding him up as some kind of good religious figure.
booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:

You may want to read up on what priests like de las Casas thought about Cortes before holding him up as some kind of good religious figure.
To be clear I said he was mixed bag, definitely had flaws. But what he did and the change he implemented is incredible. As I see it, he was instrument of God, even with his flaws. Not uncommon we see in OT- God using the evil Babylonians to change the ways of the Jews.

The same can be said for all of us. We are the hands and feet of Jesus and are instruments of God.
Sapper Redux
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booboo91 said:

Dr. Watson said:

You may want to read up on what priests like de las Casas thought about Cortes before holding him up as some kind of good religious figure.
To be clear I said he was mixed bag, definitely had flaws. But what he did and the change he implemented is incredible. As I see it, he was instrument of God, even with his flaws. Not uncommon we see in OT- God using the evil Babylonians to change the ways of the Jews.

The same can be said for all of us. We are the hands and feet of Jesus and are instruments of God.


You are aware of how many people died in horrendous ways after Cortes arrived? Upwards of 95% of the American Indian population died from disease, war, and slavery.
booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:


You are aware of how many people died in horrendous ways after Cortes arrived? Upwards of 95% of the American Indian population died from disease, war, and slavery.
Yep many died from those things mostly it was from disease. What is your point? That they had it better under human sacrifice of Aztecs? That the Indians were all singing I wish the world would drink Coke song.



Like most things it was a mixed bag, complicated. They intermarried, integrated, some were treated badily and others were not. It was a huge change in society, and some folks do better than others with the change.
Sapper Redux
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booboo91 said:

Dr. Watson said:


You are aware of how many people died in horrendous ways after Cortes arrived? Upwards of 95% of the American Indian population died from disease, war, and slavery.
Yep many died from those things mostly it was from disease. What is your point? That they had it better under human sacrifice of Aztecs? That the Indians were all singing I wish the world would drink Coke song.



Like most things it was a mixed bag, complicated. They intermarried, integrated, some were treated badily and others were not. It was a huge change in society, and some folks do better than others with the change.


A few thousand were sacrificed every year (your numbers are extreme upper ends with little to support them). We're talking millions that died terrible deaths in a very short period of time. The Aztecs were brutal. The Spanish were no better and often worse.
booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:



A few thousand were sacrificed every year (your numbers are extreme upper ends with little to support them). We're talking millions that died terrible deaths in a very short period of time. The Aztecs were brutal. The Spanish were no better and often worse.
Meh, Sorry not buying the Spanish- Europeans were the big evil empire.

1) We can debate about the numbers whether it is high or low - 1000 or 100K in a year. The truth is the Aztecs had many temples across region, They were superstitious and used human sacrifices to get answers. For big important occassions they had lots of sacrifices. When you read the books, it has lots of sacrifices all the time. Funny story they brought fat guy for Cortez to eat, because they thought Cortez was a god and wanted to eat his heart. At times they would sprinkle human blood on their food and offer it to Cortez.

2) Most of the deaths were from disease. Going to Cozumel for Spring Break- here is what killed the people there. Note: Cortez stopped in to Cozumel before he went to VeraCruz to see Montezuma.

"As many as 10,000 Maya lived on the island then, but in 1520, infected crew members of the Pnfilo Narvez expedition brought the small pox contagion to the island and by 1570 only 186 men and 172 women were left alive on Cozumel."
Sapper Redux
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You're taking propaganda as fact. We don't have the evidence for 100k in a year. Not even close. And I think it's interesting that you want to level charges at the Aztec and then dismiss the actions of the Spanish and the clergy that came with them. Yes, disease was the biggest killer. That's still worse than what the people in Mexico faced with the Aztec. Then you add in the survivors being forced to work as slave labor in silver mines or at the missions where they were stripped of their culture and used harshly.
7thGenTexan
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AG
Meh, most of the land conquered by Spain is still full of people who look like Indians, including Aztec looking Mexicans. They'll stab you if you call them Indios but that's basically what they are.

I'm just sad Tenochtitlan wasn't preserved in all its glory.
booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:

You're taking propaganda as fact. We don't have the evidence for 100k in a year. Not even close. And I think it's interesting that you want to level charges at the Aztec and then dismiss the actions of the Spanish and the clergy that came with them. Yes, disease was the biggest killer. That's still worse than what the people in Mexico faced with the Aztec. Then you add in the survivors being forced to work as slave labor in silver mines or at the missions where they were stripped of their culture and used harshly.
I don't have a dog in the fight- don't really care if they sacrficed 1K or 100K. The experts can debate who is correct, but there are many very well know stories of them sacrificing 40-80 K in a day. Also backs up the first hand accounts in the books I am reading, they did it a lot and often.

Just do a quick wiki search and you will find: Aztec Human Sacrifice
  • Although the extent of human sacrifice is unknown among several Mesoamerican civilizations, such as what distinguished Maya and Aztec human sacrifice was the importance with which it was embedded in everyday life.

  • Some post-conquest sources report that at the re-consecration of Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs sacrificed about 80,400 prisoners over the course of four days. This number is considered by Ross Hassig, author of Aztec Warfare, to be an exaggeration. Hassig states "between 10,000 and 80,400 persons" were sacrificed in the ceremony.The higher estimate would average 14 sacrifices per minute during the four-day consecration. Four tables were arranged at the top so that the victims could be jettisoned down the sides of the temple. Nonetheless, according to Codex Telleriano-Remensis, old Aztecs who talked with the missionaries told about a much lower figure for the reconsecration of the temple, approximately 4,000 victims in total.

  • Michael Harner, in his 1977 article The Enigma of Aztec Sacrifice, estimates the number of persons sacrificed in central Mexico in the 15th century as high as 250,000 per year. Fernando de Alva Corts Ixtlilxochitl, a Mexica descendant and the author of Codex Ixtlilxochitl, estimated that one in five children of the Mexica subjects was killed annually. Victor Davis Hanson argues that a claim by Don Carlos Zumrraga of 20,000 per annum is "more plausible

booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:

And I think it's interesting that you want to level charges at the Aztec and then dismiss the actions of the Spanish and the clergy that came with them. Yes, disease was the biggest killer. That's still worse than what the people in Mexico faced with the Aztec. Then you add in the survivors being forced to work as slave labor in silver mines or at the missions where they were stripped of their culture and used harshly.
I have not dismissed the European/Spanish actions, but rather tried to place it into proper perspective. The Spanish were not the evil empire (as our PC narrative says today). They treated many Indians fairly, they converted them, they integrated and married them right away. Other Indians were treated poorly, most of the deaths were caused by diease, something no one knew what was causing it at the time. the spanish have no guilt in spreading diesease they were ignorant about.

Point I made earlier, human nature does not change, whether you are European or Indian. there are good, ok and bad folks.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Dr. Watson said:

You're taking propaganda as fact. We don't have the evidence for 100k in a year. Not even close. And I think it's interesting that you want to level charges at the Aztec and then dismiss the actions of the Spanish and the clergy that came with them. Yes, disease was the biggest killer. That's still worse than what the people in Mexico faced with the Aztec. Then you add in the survivors being forced to work as slave labor in silver mines or at the missions where they were stripped of their culture and used harshly.

The Native population in the Americas was going to be decimated by disease regardless of whatever civilization they made first contact with. European, North African Muslim, Chinese. It doesn't matter.

Besides the disease, whatever civilization that made first contact (Western Europe, North African Muslim, Chinese sailing west) would have been able to dominate the Native Americans by virtue of their technology. Just as we assume an alien civilization that could travel the starts to meet us here would be far above us, so was much of the "old" world was superior in comparison to the Americas. Even when you run out of bullets, steel weapons and armor are still much more powerful than pointed sticks and carved obsidian weapons.

My point is, I view the destruction of the American native populations as something of an inevitable tragedy.

kurt vonnegut
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AG
booboo91 said:

3) I find the story of Quetzalcoatl fascinating, he is like a Jesus that came to them centuries before and they rejected his teaching of love. It kind of answers the atheist questions- what if people have never heard of Jesus. My 2 cents answer - God will provide a way, he writes right and wrong in our hearts, he sends people into our lives.

I think the 'atheist question' you are talking about deals with the Christian (and most all religions) claim to exclusively know truth. I don't really know anything about Quetzalcoatl, but I hardly think that most Christians would consider the worship of a feathered serpent to be remotely compatible with what they understand to be truth. There have been many messengers who taught love, it is my opinion that most religions tend to put more emphasis on the messenger than the actual message. If the message is all that matters, then why should a good and loving Hindu, Aztec, Muslim, Atheist, etc. not have equal claim to heaven as a Christian does?

Anyway, I don't think Quetzalcoatl answers this question. I think it all serves to reinforce the difficulty of defending a religion that claims to have exclusive access to truth.
Sapper Redux
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Have you read the reports of Spanish officials and priests in the Americas? Read about the conquest of the Inca? Of de Soto's campaigns? It's brutal. The English actually expected to be welcomed by Indians because they presented themselves as different from the Spanish. The Spanish didn't "integrate." They had different racial categories than the English, but pure Spanish ancestry was extremely important.
Sapper Redux
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kurt vonnegut said:

booboo91 said:

3) I find the story of Quetzalcoatl fascinating, he is like a Jesus that came to them centuries before and they rejected his teaching of love. It kind of answers the atheist questions- what if people have never heard of Jesus. My 2 cents answer - God will provide a way, he writes right and wrong in our hearts, he sends people into our lives.

I think the 'atheist question' you are talking about deals with the Christian (and most all religions) claim to exclusively know truth. I don't really know anything about Quetzalcoatl, but I hardly think that most Christians would consider the worship of a feathered serpent to be remotely compatible with what they understand to be truth. There have been many messengers who taught love, it is my opinion that most religions tend to put more emphasis on the messenger than the actual message. If the message is all that matters, then why should a good and loving Hindu, Aztec, Muslim, Atheist, etc. not have equal claim to heaven as a Christian does?

Anyway, I don't think Quetzalcoatl answers this question. I think it all serves to reinforce the difficulty of defending a religion that claims to have exclusive access to truth.


https://www.theonion.com/pope-francis-hosts-feathered-serpent-god-as-part-of-dei-1819579199

kurt vonnegut
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AG
I laughed.
booboo91
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kurt vonnegut said:



I think the 'atheist question' you are talking about deals with the Christian (and most all religions) claim to exclusively know truth. I don't really know anything about Quetzalcoatl, but I hardly think that most Christians would consider the worship of a feathered serpent to be remotely compatible with what they understand to be truth. There have been many messengers who taught love, it is my opinion that most religions tend to put more emphasis on the messenger than the actual message. If the message is all that matters, then why should a good and loving Hindu, Aztec, Muslim, Atheist, etc. not have equal claim to heaven as a Christian does?

Anyway, I don't think Quetzalcoatl answers this question. I think it all serves to reinforce the difficulty of defending a religion that claims to have exclusive access to truth.
To clarify a bit.

1) There is no conflict in the truth. If we both learn 2+2=4 from different schools it is still the truth! When another religion states a truth, no matter where it comes from, it is still the truth. . Example: God exists or Love Neighbor is the truth and other religions proclaim this besides Christianity. It is false notion that a religion has to be 100% right or 100% wrong.

In my opinion, it should be that some religions have more fullness of truth than others. Buddhist have much truth on human nature (but as general rule - do not discuss God), Islam there is truth in recognizing there is one God, Judism has more truth, but they miss Jesus and it continues from there into Christian religions.

2) So When Quetzalcoatl said to the Aztecs to turnaway from human sacrifice this was truth. When the Aztecs recognized there was good and evil, this is truth. My intent was not to say Quetzalcoatl is Jesus, but rather, God has a way of sending messages of truth of right and wrong to all his people across the world. This is common question from Atheist- what about those who have never heard of Jesus? We see someone was telling Aztecs before Cortez to stop human sacrifice, they did not listen.

3) Disagree would say most modern religions spend more time on the message and not the messenger. Christians spend more time on understanding the person of Jesus. When you realize Jesus is God is with us. you cannot ignore his message. If Jesus was simply a nice teacher like Buddha then you can ignore him. Everyone has an opinion, no authority.
booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:

Have you read the reports of Spanish officials and priests in the Americas? Read about the conquest of the Inca? Of de Soto's campaigns? It's brutal. The English actually expected to be welcomed by Indians because they presented themselves as different from the Spanish. The Spanish didn't "integrate." They had different racial categories than the English, but pure Spanish ancestry was extremely important.
Yes, but please send me your sources. Want to read the unpropaganda stuff you have.
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