Do those of the Jewish faith/religion recognize Jesus as their King or perhaps a King similar to David?

Just curious.

If you ask me, the Jewish leaders at the time of His crucifixion didn't seem too convinced. Were they ever convinced by perhaps Paul or any of Jesus's followers after His death?

After all, I've heard that they were expecting the Messiah to be a military leader, not a person of grace and mercy.

dds08 said:

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Do those of the Jewish faith/religion recognize Jesus as their King or perhaps a King similar to David?

Just curious.

If you ask me, the Jewish leaders at the time of His crucifixion didn't seem too convinced. Were they ever convinced by perhaps Paul or any of Jesus's followers after His death?

After all, I've heard that they were expecting the Messiah to be a military leader, not a person of grace and mercy.

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I would say that they clearly misunderstood the nature of God simply because they what they were expecting Him to be. As for now, I do not think the vast majority view Him as their King at all. There may be some that consider themselves Messianic Jews that do, but the majority seem to reject His claim of being God incarnate.

The only Jews that believed that about Jesus became Christians. The early Christians were never able to convince large numbers of Jews to adopt their beliefs and it was only through the conversion of gentiles that Christianity began to really grow and spread. The Jews at the time rejected Jesus as the messiah because there were very specific things they believed the messiah would do that Jesus absolutely did not. In Christianity this necessitated a second coming of Jesus in which he would finish up that list.

Rocag said:

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The only Jews that believed that about Jesus became Christians. The early Christians were never able to convince large numbers of Jews to adopt their beliefs and it was only through the conversion of gentiles that Christianity began to really grow and spread. The Jews at the time rejected Jesus as the messiah because there were very specific things they believed the messiah would do that Jesus absolutely did not. In Christianity this necessitated a second coming of Jesus in which he would finish up that list.

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If they wait for Jesus's second coming, won't that be too late for them to accept Him as their personal Lord and Savior, granting them salvation?

I'm not a Christian, just someone with an interest in history and religion. I'll leave the theological speculation to you.

But the answer to your question will depend on which brand of Christianity you believe in.

It's cutting it awfully close!

Rocag said:

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The only Jews that believed that about Jesus became Christians. The early Christians were never able to convince large numbers of Jews to adopt their beliefs and it was only through the conversion of gentiles that Christianity began to really grow and spread. The Jews at the time rejected Jesus as the messiah because there were very specific things they believed the messiah would do that Jesus absolutely did not. In Christianity this necessitated a second coming of Jesus in which he would finish up that list.

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This is not true. There were thousands upon thousands of Jews in Jerusalem that accepted Yeshua as the messiah. It is not like they were all calling themselves Christians during this time period. They were still Jews, just like all the disciples. This sect of Judaism was called by several names. It wasn't until later that their was a split.

Regarding Jews rejecting Yeshua based on they were looking for specific things is true to a sense. To say Judaism at that time had one view of the messiah isn't true. Some were looking for Messiah ben David while others were looking for Messiah ben Yosef. Some a mix of those two.

Sure there were eventually thousands, but within Judaism they were always a small sect. Christianity's growth was mainly a result of gentile conversions. Early Christians were aware of this fact and you can see the concerns that Christianity was becoming "less Jewish" evident in the Bible itself.

No. The Jews get a pass because they are God's chosen people.

There are no major Protestant sects that believe the Jews are damned unless they accept Jesus as their savior, to my knowledge.

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Early Christians were aware of this fact and you can see the concerns that Christianity was becoming "less Jewish" evident in the Bible itself.

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Can you point to this evidence that you speak about?

Huh, I would have thought the opposite was true. Christ came and made Jew and Gentile the same. There is no hall pass for being Jewish.

That's actually a less common view in my experience as it's tougher to justify with common Christian soteriology.

Depends on how you interpret Romans 11. I think Jews will be saved if they love God but I am a heretic.

You can see it playing out in the disagreements Paul had with some of the Apostles on whether or not the gentile Christians should be following Jewish rules and if so which ones. Circumcision was one major topic that prompted a lot of discussion. Most of the New Testament's view of this conflict is presented by Paul who argued against the "Judaizers" though it was also an important topic in the Council of Jerusalem.

Rocag said:

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You can see it playing out in the disagreements Paul had with some of the Apostles on whether or not the gentile Christians should be following Jewish rules and if so which ones. Circumcision was one major topic that prompted a lot of discussion. Most of the New Testament's view of this conflict is presented by Paul who argued against the "Judaizers" though it was also an important topic in the Council of Jerusalem.

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Where did Paul have a disagreement with the Apostles? The text does not tell us they had a disagreement. They all seem to be united.

Yes, Paul argued against Judaizers. Those who based salvation without trust of God but through works:

Acts 15:1 - Now some men coming down from Judea were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Those in authority over Paul also said:

Acts 15:19-21 - Therefore, I judge not to trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God 20 but to write to them to abstain from the contamination of idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has had in every city those who proclaim him, since he is read in all the synagogues every Shabbat."

Most people want to gloss over v21, but it is important. After Ya'akov told those who are turning to God he said "For Moses from ancient generations has had in every city those who proclaim him, since he is read in all the synagogues every Shabbat."

Here, Ya'akov told Paul and everyone else there, to hear what Moses wrote, while in the synagogue every Sabbath.

They were to hear what Moses wrote? Why would Ya'akov tell people to hear what Moses wrote? Sounds like he wanted them to hear Torah.

Where? In the synagogue. Not a church.

When? Every Sabbath.

Doesn't sound like anyone is teaching separation from the Jews as you contest. In fact, later in Acts 21 we read this:

Acts 21:19-20 - After greeting them, he reported to them in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his service. 20 And when they heard, they began glorifying God.

They said, "You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jewish people who have believedand they are all zealous for the Torah.

Paul was telling the elders what was being done among Gentiles. The elders heard and glorified God.

They (not Paul, but the elders) said, as they were talking about Gentiles, "You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jewish people who have believedand they are all zealous for the Torah."

Sounds like to me they are saying there were Gentiles who were zealous for the Torah.

This does not appear to me they are teaching to move away from Judaism or circumcision. What Paul was teaching is doing works without God is of no effect.

Paul said that who is righteous? Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Huh, I would have thought the opposite was true. Christ came and made Jew and Gentile the same. There is no hall pass for being Jewish.

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Depends on if you read the "Left Behind" books where the Jews were set apart or not.

It's certainly a "Non-Denom" view. Not sure how prevalent it is.

It pains me to think that people really took those books as serious theology.

"Do those of the Jewish faith/religion recognize Jesus as their King or perhaps a King similar to David?"

Too easy.

No.

The thing to note is that we're only seeing one side of the discussion, but the text itself provides insight into what the other side believed. Paul would not waste his time writing out arguments in favor of a position if there weren't influential people arguing something else. Why was the Council of Jerusalem held? If everyone agreed then why was it necessary at all?

OnlyForNow said:

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No. The Jews get a pass because they are God's chosen people.

There are no major Protestant sects that believe the Jews are damned unless they accept Jesus as their savior, to my knowledge.

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So are you saying the present day Jews will be spared eternal damnation without accepting Jesus as their savior?


I'm skeptical. Are you familiar with the talk Jesus had with Nicodemus; being born again ring any bells? (John 3)

Rocag said:

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The thing to note is that we're only seeing one side of the discussion, but the text itself provides insight into what the other side believed. Paul would not waste his time writing out arguments in favor of a position if there weren't influential people arguing something else. Why was the Council of Jerusalem held? If everyone agreed then why was it necessary at all?

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Acts 15:1 says "Now some men coming down from Judea were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

These men were not from the council.

v2 - When Paul and Barnabas had a big argument and debate with them, the brothers appointed Paul and Barnabas with some others from among them to go up to Jerusalem to the emissaries and elders about this issue.

I didn't say everyone agreed. I said the leadership agreed. There was no debate among the leadership according to the text. It was held b/c Paul and Barnabas were in Galatia and were appointed to go speak to the leaders.


James 2:9 - But if you show favoritism, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Torah as transgressors.

I wonder why Ya'akov says "are convicted by the Torah as transgressors" if the Torah is no longer applicable?

Being born again was not new. This is why Yeshua was expressing disbelief when Nicodemus did not catch on.

How do you think Jews were saved prior to the Messiah coming into the scene?

agie95 said:

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How do you think Jews were saved prior to the Messiah coming into the scene?

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We've had an entire thread discussing this very topic.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2930611

OnlyForNow said:

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No. The Jews get a pass because they are God's chosen people.

There are no major Protestant sects that believe the Jews are damned unless they accept Jesus as their savior, to my knowledge.

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Is this really a thing the "hallpass" thought process? News to me?

Great, I am asking his opinion.

People are saved the same way today and yesterday and as 2100 years ago.

agie95 said:

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How do you think Jews were saved prior to the Messiah coming into the scene?

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Well, this isn't a easy question. From being around church and listening to sermons, what I've been told is that before Jesus Christ, people believed in the coming Messiah, via the prophecies. It was by this they were justified.

Christians today look back at His death burial and resurrection, and believe He is Lord and that He died for our sins. Those who lived before Christ was born look ahead to his coming and believe in Him as the Messiah and are justified by faith. This is what I have been told and it makes sense.

Why? Because Jesus is the One Who Was and Is and Is To Come. It doesn't matter if you believe in Him before he was born on earth or after He died and rose again. He always existed, before time began. (My personal opinion)

Here is a website that helps:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html

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II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity,upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.

III. Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second, commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved,and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.

IV. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.

V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.

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So you believe the method of salvation changed?

That is a pretty important topic to address. Did the Messiah ever address this?

I believe the elect are Christians and no longer non Christians (Jews).
Satan has already won the souls of nonbelievers (non believing gentile and Jews) He going after the Christians.

Duggins90 said:

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I believe the elect are Christians and no longer non Christians (Jews).
Satan has already won the souls of nonbelievers (non believing gentile and Jews) He going after the Christians.

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You believe in supersessionism, which is taught throughout the Bible that it is not true. Also, this is not what Revelation teaches.

Revelation 12:17 - So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspringthose who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua.

Supersessionism:

"Only if this fixed order departs from before Me"it is a declaration of Adonai"then also might Israel's offspring cease from being a nation before Mefor all time." 36 Thus says Adonai: "Only if heaven above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then also I will cast off the offspring of Israelfor all they have done." It is a declaration of Adonai. Jeremiah 31:35-36

Romans 11 also speaks to this issue.

Psalm 105:8-11 - He is Adonai our God.
His judgments are in all the earth.
8 He remembers His covenant forever
the word He commanded for a thousand generations
9 which He made with Abraham,
and swore to Isaac,
10 and confirmed to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 saying, "To you I give the land of Canaan,
the portion of your inheritance."

Jeremiah 30:1-18

Romans 9:3-5 - For I would pray that I myself were cursed, banished from Messiah for the sake of my peoplemy own flesh and blood, 4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Torah and the Temple service and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchsand from them, according to the flesh, the Messiah, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.

Here Paul declares in the present tense that the covenants and the promises still belong to Israel. Paul said this during the Church Age! Thus, based on this passage alone replacement theology or supersessionism is refuted. God has not cut the Jewish people out of the covenant He made with them, nor is He planning to give the blessings He promised to the Jews to the "Church" instead. Yeshus came for the lost sheep of Israel. The "new covenant" is with the House of Judah and the House of Israel....not with the church. God forbid!

Have you ever read Ezekiel 36-48?

Zechariah 8:6-8 - "Thus says Adonai-Tzva'ot, 'It may seem difficult in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, but will it also be difficult in My eyes?'it is a declaration of Adonai-Tzva'ot. 7 "Thus says Adonai-Tzva'ot, 'Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west. 8 I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem. They will be My people and I will be their God, in truth and righteousness.'

Zechariah 8:23 - Thus says Adonai-Tzva'ot, "In those days it will come to pass that ten men from every language of the nations will grasp the corner of the garment (tzitzit) of a Jew saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

Romans 11:20b-21 - Do not be arrogant, but fear 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.

Supersessionism is just plain false.

agie95 said:

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So you believe the method of salvation changed?

That is a pretty important topic to address. Did the Messiah ever address this?

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I've already answered your question in my previous posts.

Not so much. Your belief then, since you believe salvation changed, is that God doesn't know what He is doing. Therefore, He is trying everything He can to save people. He keeps changing it up.

This is not the God of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'acov. This is some Greek god that Christians made up.

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This is not the God of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'acov.

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I understand why you usually leave out the 'o' in "God", although you didn't do it here. But why mix in Hebrew words like this while using English everywhere else? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the same as what you posted. Just a curiosity as to what the criteria is that you use when switching back and forth between English and Hebrew.