Is it possible to be neutral in regard to The Lord's and Satan's opposing agendas?

If so, what exactly would "being neutral" look like?

Personally, I think it's impossible. Either your're for the Lord or for Satan; or just kidding yourself (blind to what's right and what's wrong, or so deep in politics, it's made a log in your eyes that has distorted your vision.)

Either you're for honesty/truth, or you're not.

dds08 said:

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Is it possible to be neutral in regard to The Lord's and Satan's opposing agendas?

If so, what exactly would "being neutral" look like?

Personally, I think it's impossible. Either your're for the Lord or for Satan; or just kidding yourself (blind to what's right and what's wrong, or so deep in politics, it's made a log in your eyes that has distorted your vision.)

Either you're for honesty/truth, or you're not.

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I think your first step should be to identify what those agendas are.

Once we've reached a consensus (unlikely) on what each position is and how they are opposed to each other, only then can we establish whether or not there is a "neutral" position.

It's possible to be for oneself. You can argue that this is being for satan, but I would disagree. You could have no real malice in your heart, but just not give a damn about people other than the ones in your tribe, however you want to define that.

There are people who are malicious, are hateful, do want to harm people. That is different than the above.

John 10:10

The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Something to ponder on.

I have come to realize that, if one thinks about it, sin and evil is kind of forced upon all humans, as sinners. It's the default. Unlike Christ who gives salvation as a free gift if one so chooses to accept.

in one case, it's forced, in the other, one has a choice.

Even if one chooses to do good without receiving salvation, the ultimate question arises as to why? What are the intentions and motives for this course of action (selfish reasons, fame, fortune) In contrast, to those who believe, one could argue because said actions were out of obedience to the Lord (Love thy neighbor as thyself), or because of the example/model of the Lord; one gives because He first gave His Only Begotten Son.

I digress.

BusterAg said:

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It's possible to be for oneself. You can argue that this is being for satan, but I would disagree. You could have no real malice in your heart, but just not give a damn about people other than the ones in your tribe, however you want to define that.

There are people who are malicious, are hateful, do want to harm people. That is different than the above.

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That's what satan wants...for you to say you aren't bad like them, so you're o.k. He wins in that scenario.

It is truly a binary situation. 1 or 0. With God or not with God.

Or, you know, god is just a figment of the human imagination and it's more of a 0 or 0 choice.

dds08 said:

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Is it possible to be neutral in regard to The Lord's and Satan's opposing agendas?

If so, what exactly would "being neutral" look like?

Personally, I think it's impossible. Either your're for the Lord or for Satan; or just kidding yourself (blind to what's right and what's wrong, or so deep in politics, it's made a log in your eyes that has distorted your vision.)

Either you're for honesty/truth, or you're not.

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That's what satan wants...for you to say you aren't bad like them, so you're o.k. He wins in that scenario.

It is truly a binary situation. 1 or 0. With God or not with God.

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How does this binary situation work in reality? Can anyone on this site say that they are 100% for the Lord's agenda, that they have always acted in the interest of His agenda, have always been 100% for honesty / truth, etc. It seems an impossible standard by which any sinner, not being perfectly for the Lord, is therefore for Satan and his agenda. Since you are all sinners, you are all devil worshippers. . .

So, maybe you open it up a bit and say that one might be 100% for the Lord's agenda and honesty and truth even though they sometimes fall short of serving that agenda. Not exactly a 1. . . but close enough to round up, right?

Well what about different denominations? Maybe you are a Catholic and believe this and I'm a Protestant and I believe that. Lets say I'm wrong, does that mean I serve Satan? Or am I close enough to being a 1 that I just sort of count as a 1. Those Mormons are like a .45 on the scale, so they round down to a 0.

I support the part of the Lord's agenda that talks about loving each other. I don't support the part of the Lord's agenda that talks about blind worship upon threat of torture. Therefore what? That means I support evil, lies, hate, and greed? And if I am an agent of Satan, well then just about anything can be (or has been) justified, yes?

This black or white, 1 or 0, right or wrong absolutism is such a poisonous and intellectually bankrupt idea.

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Well what about different denominations? Maybe you are a Catholic and believe this and I'm a Protestant and I believe that. Lets say I'm wrong, does that mean I serve Satan? Or am I close enough to being a 1 that I just sort of count as a 1. Those Mormons are like a .45 on the scale, so they round down to a 0.

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James 4:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
Submit Yourselves to God
4 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God.

I doubt it was God's original intention/plan to have all these different denominations under the "Christianity" label. They arose out of the Lord's followers not being able to get along.

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How does this binary situation work in reality? Can anyone on this site say that they are 100% for the Lord's agenda, that they have always acted in the interest of His agenda, have always been 100% for honesty / truth, etc. It seems an impossible standard by which any sinner, not being perfectly for the Lord, is therefore for Satan and his agenda. Since you are all sinners, you are all devil worshippers. . .

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You're taking it from a quantitative perspective when I believe the situation is more qualitative. No one may boast. (Ephesians 2:9) We are all sinners until the Lord comes back and/or finishes his work in us.(Philippians 1:6) Everyone's spiritual journey is different characterized by strengths and weaknesses.

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I support the part of the Lord's agenda that talks about loving each other. I don't support the part of the Lord's agenda that talks about blind worship upon threat of torture. Therefore what? That means I support evil, lies, hate, and greed? And if I am an agent of Satan, well then just about anything can be (or has been) justified, yes?

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You never heard/not familiar with the story of Jesus, Peter and the rooster? Ironically, I believe later on Peter was crucified upside down.

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This black or white, 1 or 0, right or wrong absolutism is such a poisonous and intellectually bankrupt idea.

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Please don't mistake the spiritual journey with accepting or denying The Lord Jesus as one's personal savior. One either accepts the Only Begotten Son, Jesus, as their savior or they don't. This is binary.

John 10:8-10 New International Version (NIV)

8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

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I support the part of the Lord's agenda that talks about loving each other.

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One who is incredibly honest and truthful the majority of their lives and loves others (their neighbors) without accepting Christ as their savior is playing a dangerous game with their soul.

We could never be good enough to earn our way into heaven. I'm sure someone has told you this already. We all have the mark of a sinner from Adam and Eve. What is required to get into heaven is accepting Christ as your savior. (believe in the perfect sacrifice for our sins, one who never sinned, Jesus)

dds08 said:

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One who is incredibly honest and truthful the majority of their lives and loves others (their neighbors) without accepting Christ as their savior is playing a dangerous game with their soul.

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Well, maybe those good non-believers will end up in Heaven anyway because God isn't a sociopath. Or they'll end up in Hell with many billions of other fine humans who lived reasonably honest and loving lives but worshiped the wrong God. Really, this seems like a win-win.

I honestly believe your quibbles are with the scripture, not necessarily anyone on this board.

From what I gather about you, as far as your spiritual journey is concerned (loving others, value of honesty and goodness) you're "closer" than you may realize. However, as the oracle said in the Matrix, "you have the gift heart, but it seems you're waiting for something Kurt."

Tramp96 said:

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BusterAg said:

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It's possible to be for oneself. You can argue that this is being for satan, but I would disagree. You could have no real malice in your heart, but just not give a damn about people other than the ones in your tribe, however you want to define that.

There are people who are malicious, are hateful, do want to harm people. That is different than the above.

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That's what satan wants...for you to say you aren't bad like them, so you're o.k. He wins in that scenario.

It is truly a binary situation. 1 or 0. With God or not with God.

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Correct me if I am wrong but I assume from your post you would consider yourself a Calvinist? And if so, do you not mean that either God chose us or He didn't? Because we have no choice, correct? And since no one is capable of doing good without God choosing us, would not the folks "good works" mean that they are of the "elect"?

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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Is it possible to be neutral in regard to The Lord's and Satan's opposing agendas?

If so, what exactly would "being neutral" look like?

Personally, I think it's impossible. Either your're for the Lord or for Satan; or just kidding yourself (blind to what's right and what's wrong, or so deep in politics, it's made a log in your eyes that has distorted your vision.)

Either you're for honesty/truth, or you're not.

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Quote:

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That's what satan wants...for you to say you aren't bad like them, so you're o.k. He wins in that scenario.

It is truly a binary situation. 1 or 0. With God or not with God.

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How does this binary situation work in reality? Can anyone on this site say that they are 100% for the Lord's agenda, that they have always acted in the interest of His agenda, have always been 100% for honesty / truth, etc. It seems an impossible standard by which any sinner, not being perfectly for the Lord, is therefore for Satan and his agenda. Since you are all sinners, you are all devil worshippers. . .

So, maybe you open it up a bit and say that one might be 100% for the Lord's agenda and honesty and truth even though they sometimes fall short of serving that agenda. Not exactly a 1. . . but close enough to round up, right?

Well what about different denominations? Maybe you are a Catholic and believe this and I'm a Protestant and I believe that. Lets say I'm wrong, does that mean I serve Satan? Or am I close enough to being a 1 that I just sort of count as a 1. Those Mormons are like a .45 on the scale, so they round down to a 0.

I support the part of the Lord's agenda that talks about loving each other. I don't support the part of the Lord's agenda that talks about blind worship upon threat of torture. Therefore what? That means I support evil, lies, hate, and greed? And if I am an agent of Satan, well then just about anything can be (or has been) justified, yes?

This black or white, 1 or 0, right or wrong absolutism is such a poisonous and intellectually bankrupt idea.

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I am a believer and actually somewhat agree with you.

Is an agnostic surgeon who invents a heart device that saves thousands of lives an "agent of Satan"? Or are his "good deeds" only good in the sight of man and not God? Or is he one of the "elect" and does not know it? I am confused.

My point was simply that good works doesn't earn you salvation. If you don't believe in God, reject God, or decide on your own what parts of the Lord's will you will accept or do and which parts you won't, then no matter the amount of good you think you are, you won't be saved.

None of us can be 100%...it's impossible. What I mean is you either accept that your only path to salvation is the grace from God because his Son died in your place, or you don't. You can't be neutral on that. If you don't accept it, then good works will not save you.

So it is our decision? I agree with you.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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One who is incredibly honest and truthful the majority of their lives and loves others (their neighbors) without accepting Christ as their savior is playing a dangerous game with their soul.

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Well, maybe those good non-believers will end up in Heaven anyway because God isn't a sociopath. Or they'll end up in Hell with many billions of other fine humans who lived reasonably honest and loving lives but worshiped the wrong God. Really, this seems like a win-win.

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I have plenty of short comings. My use of the 'good non-believer' isn't really personal, I just think it is a difficult idea to sort out for some believers and I'm curious to know how and why they do it.

dermdoc said:

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I am a believer and actually somewhat agree with you.

Is an agnostic surgeon who invents a heart device that saves thousands of lives an "agent of Satan"? Or are his "good deeds" only good in the sight of man and not God? Or is he one of the "elect" and does not know it? I am confused.

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I mean, the surgeon could still be an ******* and only doing it to make a few bucks . . . but I hear you.

I imagine that most believers carry around uncertainty and doubt making their level of faith somewhere on the scale between 0 and 1. This either 'For God or Against God' talk is troublesome.

Agree. I have enough faults of my own to be concerned about anyone else's. And it is certainly not my place to tell someone they are going to Hell. Just treat others as you would want to be treated and let God sort it out. And I know some on here are glad I am not a pastor with that theology.

I can't do anything except pray for them and tell them of my faith. Then it is up to the person and God. I can not save anyone. In other words, the ball is in your court.

Edited to add that Matthew 10:14 comes to mind. And reading Proverbs right now so will add Proverbs 9:8.

No, but in all seriousness; my thoughts are on the ones who are on the bubble of becoming believers in Christ. What exactly happens to all those people once Jesus comes back and says, "Times up!"

I would hate to see those doomed to an eternal damnation!

Additionally, all those who had a good chance of accepting Christ, (or would have accepted Him had they known Him better), but simply ran out of time.

My heart goes out to all those individuals.

But then again, I heard that the Lord will come back once all humans have been given an opportunity to accept him. So all the above thoughts are, in a way, a tidbit moot.

BUMP

I found this excellent excerpt from CS Lewis's "That Hideous Strength" regarding neutrality.

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"Yes," he said. "But don't think I'm talking of Freudian repressions. He knew only half the facts. It isn't a question of inhibitions inculcated shame against natural desire. I'm afraid there's no niche in the world for people that won't be either Pagan or Christian. Just imagine a man who was too dainty to eat with his fingers and yet wouldn't use forks!"

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It couldn't be said any better.