Pew Survey on Catholic/Protestant Relations

5,009 Views | 122 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Thaddeus73
Serotonin
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AG
Rene Guenon on Protestantism:
Quote:

Religion is essentially a form of tradition, so the anti-traditional outlook cannot help being anti-religious; it begins by removing essential elements of religion and, when it can, ends by suppressing it entirely.

Protestantism is illogical: while doing all it can to 'humanize' and 'modernize' religion, it nevertheless retains revelation, which is a supra-human element. It does not dare carry its negation to the logical conclusion but, by subjecting revelation to all the discussions resulting from purely human interpretations, it does in fact reduce it to next to nothing; and seeing, as one does, people who persist in calling themselves Christian even though they deny the very divinity of Christ, one cannot avoid the supposition that they are much nearer to complete negation than to real Christianity, although they may not realize the fact. Such contradictions, however, should not occasion too much surprise, for they are in every field one of the symptoms of the disorder and confusion of our times, just as the incessant subdivision of Protestantism is one of the many manifestations of that dispersion in multiplicity which, as we have shown, is to be found everywhere in modern life and science.

Moreover, it is natural that Protestantism, owing to the spirit of negation by which it is animated, should have given birth to that destructive 'criticism' which, in the hands of the so-called 'historians of religion', has been turned into a weapon against all religion, so that, while claiming to recognize no other authority than that of the Sacred Books, the Protestant movement has in this way contributed very largely toward the destruction of this very authority, that is to say, of the minimum of tradition that it still retained. Once started, the revolt against the traditional outlook could not be stopped halfway.
Go visit the 400-year-old Calvinist churches in New England. Within one or two centuries they turned Unitarian and many have now become museums.

Go visit Catholic Churches of the same vintage in Santa Fe. They are still functioning Catholic Churches.

Protestantism is a continual rejection of tradition. Confessional, musical, scriptural or theological interpretation or any other traditions within Protestantism will soon be washed away and replaced by something else.
chuckd
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k2aggie07 said:

It's pretty disingenuous to come down theologically on Rome's soteriology based on a confession that is itself an admittedly supra- or extra-scriptural interpretation.

And it does deny the efficacy of the Mystery of Baptism, because we Orthodox believe that Baptism really and truly does communicate grace; not an imputed grace. Seeing as we believe that Baptism is the entry into the Church and the means of beginning a right relationship with God (God's sovereignty and economy notwithstanding), suggesting that justification begins with an imputed grace vice a real grace is an "issue".

I don't think anyone believes that the Holy Mysteries have an inherent grace based on anything other than Christ. This is readily apparent from the prayers said.
What interpretation is not supra- or extra-scriptural and what does that have to do with Rome's soteriology?

The sacraments are a means of grace infused by the Spirit in sanctification, in distinction of justification. God accepting a man as righteous (justification) by imputing the righteousness of Christ unto them does not deny the efficacy of the sacraments (sanctification).

We agree that the sacraments really and truly do communicate grace, not imputed.
Zobel
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Sorry, I wasn't clear - we believe that the means of entry into right relationship with God is baptism. That is to say, baptism is the normative means of justification (again, this is making no commentary on God's sovereignty or economy). So if Justification is identified with both baptism and an imputed righteousness, this a de facto statement that baptism does not convey "real" grace.

On the other hand, we believe that baptism is a true efficacious means of salvation and grace. So in the moment of baptism, to quote our service, "Thou art justified, thou art illumined, thou art sanctified, thou art washed, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Through baptism we are justified, and by no imputation, but in a real and efficacious way. In Baptism we are saved, washed, regenerated, and united with Christ in His death and into His Resurrection and Church. (Cf Titus 3:5).

So you see... there's a broad gulf here on the very concepts being discussed.
chuckd
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There is a broad gulf. I was responding to the imputed righteousness of Christ in justification making the sacraments ineffectual. It does not, and they are not.
Serotonin
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AG
As a follow-up to my post, look at the evolution of Protestantism in America or in my hometown of Houston:

America
  • 18th century- Presbyterians join then surpass Anglicans and Congregationalists in the top 3 religious denominations. Presbyterians of this era are a very serious, confessional denomination.
  • 19th century- Methodists pass Presbyterians as largest denomination. Methodists reject many of the "harsh" Calvinistic and Confessional standards of Presbyterianism.
  • 19th/20th century- Baptists surpass Methodists as largest denomination. Baptists reject many "traditional" aspects of Methodism and older forms of Protestantism as stuffy and (at best) outdated or (at worst) un-Biblical.
  • Today- Non-denominational churches (or non-Baptist "evangelicals") have surpassed Baptists (~16% to 9% according to Pew) and are the fastest-growing denominations.

Houston:
  • 19th Century: First Presbyterian Church is the first and largest Church in Houston
  • 20th Century: The largest Baptist and Methodist Churches surpass FPC
  • 21st Century: Joel Osteen's Church is largest

Looking at the 100 fastest-growing churches in the US a few things stand out:
Quote:

Out of these 100 churches, 42 of them are non-denominational or independent. That's more than DOUBLE the number of the next largest segment, the Southern Baptists, who accounted for 20 churches. The growth of non-denominational and independent churches is a continuing trend in United States...

What accounts for this incredible growth? In a word, tradition. Or, to be precise, the lack thereof. Non-denominational churches are far less likely to cling to traditions for their own sake but, instead, move and flex with the culture. They're not the only ones doing this, of course, but they are leading the charge. And, let's be clear, when it comes to the fastest-growing non-denominational churches, they are certainly not watering down the gospel just because they're not observing tradition. In fact, one of the biggest factors that these churches have in common is their single-minded focus on biblical, gospel truth.
http://am.digital/5-things-learned-100-fastest-growing-churches-america/

The future of Protestantism isn't five solas, Calvinism, traditional Lutheranism. It is Joel Osteen. It is a rejection of all tradition and history. It is the unique interpretation of the Bible by a single pastor and church. It is churches that will disappear by the time one's grandchildren are born.
chuckd
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I actually see the next generation of "non-denominational evangelicals" is to seek out a high church, highly liturgical tradition.
https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2337430
wbt5845
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RetiredAg said:

If we aren't Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, what do you consider us? Are anabaptists protestant?
Protestants = Christians who are not Catholic
Very Tolerant Nice Guy
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wbt5845 said:

RetiredAg said:

If we aren't Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, what do you consider us? Are anabaptists protestant?
Protestants = Christians who are not Catholic
Wrongo. You cannot separate yourself from the Church, which is the body of Christ; and still be a Christian. You cannot deny the divinity of Christ and be a Christian. The Protestant Church is as much a heresy as Arianism; Gnosticism, etc.
PacifistAg
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wbt5845 said:

RetiredAg said:

If we aren't Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, what do you consider us? Are anabaptists protestant?
Protestants = Christians who are not Catholic
Not true. This subject has led me to read up on this over past day. Not all non-Catholics are Protestants. Anabaptists are not considered Protestant. Orthodox are not Protestant. You absolutely can be a Christian who is Catholic, Protestant, Anabaptist, Orthodox, etc though.
wbt5845
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RetiredAg said:

wbt5845 said:

RetiredAg said:

If we aren't Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, what do you consider us? Are anabaptists protestant?
Protestants = Christians who are not Catholic
Not true. This subject has led me to read up on this over past day. Not all non-Catholics are Protestants. Anabaptists are not considered Protestant. Orthodox are not Protestant. You absolutely can be a Christian who is Catholic, Protestant, Anabaptist, Orthodox, etc though.
Is true.

Orthodox are Catholic (I didn't say Roman).

Anabaptists use the Bible, which came from the Catholic church. So even if they "claim" to not be protestant, they are.
PacifistAg
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wbt5845 said:

RetiredAg said:

wbt5845 said:

RetiredAg said:

If we aren't Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, what do you consider us? Are anabaptists protestant?
Protestants = Christians who are not Catholic
Not true. This subject has led me to read up on this over past day. Not all non-Catholics are Protestants. Anabaptists are not considered Protestant. Orthodox are not Protestant. You absolutely can be a Christian who is Catholic, Protestant, Anabaptist, Orthodox, etc though.
Is true.

Orthodox are Catholic (I didn't say Roman).

Anabaptists use the Bible, which came from the Catholic church. So even if they "claim" to not be protestant, they are.
No, they really aren't. Well, I guess it's just a matter of perspective. Some consider it part of the Protestant Reformation. Many, however, see it as a entirely distinct movement apart from Protestantism. I know the Mennonite church I attend at times does not consider itself to be Protestant. Anabaptism: Neither Catholic Nor Protestant


wbt5845
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Their only choices are Catholic or Protestant. Otherwise they are not Christian.
PacifistAg
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wbt5845 said:

Their only choices are Catholic or Protestant. Otherwise they are not Christian.
Not true.

In the end, it doesn't matter if one wants to call them Protestant or not, I guess. The label, or absence of it, won't change their theology.
Aggie4Life02
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AG
Classic Debate!

AgLiving06
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chuckd said:

I actually see the next generation of "non-denominational evangelicals" is to seek out a high church, highly liturgical tradition.
https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2337430

Agree.

I don't think many people like to admit it, but many many "christian" denominations are going to fall away (looking at Osteen and the likes of the ELCA).

You already see signs of it in that they rarely quote the Bible and view the Bible as being fallible.

I hope and pray we will see a consolidation in fake christian churches into a more consolidated "High Church" view on they way to a unified Church.
UTExan
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That we view each other as brothers and sisters is great. The theology of Catholicism tolerates and promotes a corrupt institutional clergy, however. Prots are much better at culling the clergy ranks of problems.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Zobel
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What is the theology of Catholicism? Your sentence makes no sense.
jkag89
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UTExan said:

That we view each other as brothers and sisters is great. The theology of Catholicism tolerates and promotes a corrupt institutional clergy, however. Prots are much better at culling the clergy ranks of problems.
They are? Study/facts to support this? Insurance settlements seem to indicate Protestant clergy are not any less likely to be "problematical."
Thaddeus73
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jkag89 said:

UTExan said:

That we view each other as brothers and sisters is great. The theology of Catholicism tolerates and promotes a corrupt institutional clergy, however. Prots are much better at culling the clergy ranks of problems.
They are? Study/facts to support this? Insurance settlements seem to indicate Protestant clergy are not any less likely to be "problematical."
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xwwd3w/billy-grahams-grandson-says-protestants-abuse-kids-just-like-catholics
 
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