Bishop Barron and the demonic

A very misunderstood part and ignored part of Christian ministry. Thanks, OP, even if I do disagree with some aspects. Prayer (the Jesus Prayer in particular) and fasting and humility allow us access to God's Throne in seasons of spiritual warfare.

Interesting video. Thanks for posting. I agree with the Bishop that most of the evil in this world in not literally some demon possessing someone ala "The Exorcist", but the devil exerting his influence in our daily lives. One doesn't have to be possessed to do evil. And as he points out, separation from God due to sin opens the door. I like his untreated wound analogy.

Traditional Catholic theology lists a 3 front war for mankind - the flesh, the devil, and the world. Our free will has to overcome all of those obstacles if we are be one with Jesus.

When one makes a claim that something exists, he has the burden of proof.

There's no reason to believe something exists unless there's good evidence for/proof of it.

Thaddeus73 said:

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For you, maybe, but since I'm not trying to convince you of anything, my faith and my personal beliefs are truly my own.

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I'd like to understand better how you can be personally convinced of something for which there is no good evidence.

How do you know demons are real, but fairies and sprites are not?

Jesus Christ.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Jesus Christ.

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Was this posting in exasperation? As in "Jesus Christ Marie, they are minerals!"
Or as rational? As in Jesus Christ has placed this knowledge on my heart

St. John said that the reason the Son of Man came to earth was to destroy the works of the devil.. 1 John 3:8.

The Catholic Church has priests who perform many exorcisms per day.

Clearly an organization as expansive at the Church wouldn't employ these priests to perform all these exorcisms if demons weren't real.

Do you exist?

Prove it.

k2aggie07 said:

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Do you exist?

Prove it.

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I'm a Russian bot.

All posits differ by quality, not kind. The posit of solid objects is no different than Homer's gods, or in this case, demons.

At best you can say that demons are inferior to other posits based on their predictive or explanatory value to the universe based on your experiences. We can go no further.

k2aggie07 said:

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At best you can say that demons are inferior to other posits based on their predictive or explanatory value to the universe based on your experiences. We can go no further.

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I disagree that my personal (or anyone's) experiences matter. Predictive or explanatory value must be demonstrable to everyone.

I think you're missing the point.

Any posit you introduce to someone else then provides either reaffirming or recalcitrant experiences for them with regard to predictive of explanatory value.

So in effect, the demonstration itself is the experience we're discussing.

Sure. You can categorize it as such. The claim doesn't become any stronger. Big foot, angels demons, fairies, Norse gods, ghosts...pick your poison and your category. They each stand on similar levels of evidenciary support and predictive value. That the posit rocks exist and vampires exist are both of similar unprovable nature doesn't somehow level their credibility one iota.

I don't disagree with you.

I'm just pointing out that unimboti nkum's boring "prove demons exist" isn't really much of an argument.

k2aggie07 said:

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I think you're missing the point.

Any posit you introduce to someone else then provides either reaffirming or recalcitrant experiences for them with regard to predictive of explanatory value.

So in effect, the demonstration itself is the experience we're discussing.

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I'm still missing the point.

The point is that the sum total of human knowledge is essentially an amalgamation of experiences, either affirming or recalcitrant, connecting a web of posits. Saying experiences don't matter says knowledge doesn't matter.

k2aggie07 said:

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All posits differ by quality, not kind. The posit of solid objects is no different than Homer's gods, or in this case, demons.

At best you can say that demons are inferior to other posits based on their predictive or explanatory value to the universe based on your experiences. We can go no further.

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And consistently theistic posits have inferior predictive power. They are batting at the same rate as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Quote:

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There's no reason to believe something exists unless there's good evidence for/proof of it

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Let's always make sure we distinguish between evidence and proof. I cannot prove the resurrection of Jesus but I believe that the historical evidence of the what He taught, writings that pre-date his arrival, the actions, lives, and message of his followers provide evidence that He walked out of the tomb alive.

Likewise I cannot prove that demons exist. I haven't seen them and cannot take them to a lab and test them. In the same way I cannot take God to a lab, Jesus to a lab, angels to a lab, heaven or hell. The question is, when Jesus spoke of demons, heaven, hell, etc, is there enough evidence to believe that He was telling the truth?

What was his mental state? What were His claims? What actions did He perform? Why did He quote Psalm 22 while on the cross? Is it reasonable to believe that He has more information than we do when it comes to the Spiritual realm?

Bottom line is that Christians walk by faith, not by sight...

unimboti nkum said:

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I'd like to understand better how you can be personally convinced of something for which there is no good evidence.

How do you know demons are real, but fairies and sprites are not?

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1) I would say step one is understand that there is a God (Intelligence Design/ Higher Power/ Creator.) In short if you are so blind that you do not recognize God, you will not be able to accept Devil/ Demons.

2) Step 2- After you grasp God exists. Need to understand God is not physically in this universe ( He is not constrained by Time and Matter). There is a spiritual realm, eternal souls, angels and demons, Heaven and Hell.

I find it interesting folks can grasp parallel universe, string theory (extra dimensions) but they can not grasp God exists, because they can't touch or see him.

Unimboti,

1) I always point to this miracle of the Sun. Because it was well documented modern miracle. With this miracle, it is critical to look at the timing. At the exact time given, roughly 70 K people see a miracle that was promised! The reason 70K people were there was to see something!

Atheist and Christians alike saw the miracle (Sun rotating in funny manner), it was in the papers. AND People not associated with the gathering also saw it, from miles away. Very important point- Science might be able to explain what happened, but they cannot explain the timing.


But my main point on the Miracle of the Sun. Is the outcome we see from it. well documented and witnessed event and yet those who have faith believe in what happened and those who do not make excuses on what really happened and that it was not a miracle.

So what we see from nonbelievers is that anything that happens, healing people, walking on water, feeding 5000, raising people from the dead, will be ignored and excuses will be made. The only thing that may work is for us to have the personal experience, for us to see it with our own eyes (like St. Thomas). Hint: Christians always say, we need to have a personal experience with Jesus, encounter his love (see St. Paul).

I bring all this up, because you want hard physical evidence of Demons (that do not have physical bodies). The real truth, we can present you with " real" true stories (see countless NDE videos on Youtube) but you will not believe them. It is only when you personally encounter the spiritual world- God, Jesus, angels, demons, that you might believe.

2) Supernatural spiritual events happen all the time: In my family, My grandfather at his death bed told us things he had no way of knowing as he spoke to those who had died (spiritual realm), I have personally heard the whisper of God. My brother saw black magic and voodo, juju man witch doctors in Nigeria in the 80s. People have encounters all the time, miracles occur all the time, but they are discounted, just like the miracle of the sun.

4) Here is your demon story- Do you think this priest in Corpus Christi was lying or just mistaken? Need to wait 11 seconds for the video to start.

Unimboti,

My personal take, is the cartoons we watched when when we were young. the angel and demon on shoulder whispering in our ear, is correct.

The choice is ours, but they (demons) can tempt us. Much like the garden of Eden.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Bottom line is that Christians walk by faith, not by sight...

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This is always the first giveaway for a shallow faith. Jesus walked with the earliest Christians and supposedly they witnessed miracles and demonic possession and all kinds of stuff. Faith never meant blind faith. It meant putting your faith in Christ as our savior. It didn't mean blind faith that crazy events happened. It's become an incorrect idiotic catch all for Christians being completely unable to substantiate their faith. They laugh at Mormons for the same reasons but don't realize they face the exact same issues.

Gymbo said:

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This is always the first giveaway for a shallow faith. Jesus walked with the earliest Christians and supposedly they witnessed miracles and demonic possession and all kinds of stuff. Faith never meant blind faith. It meant putting your faith in Christ as our savior. It didn't mean blind faith that crazy events happened. It's become an incorrect idiotic catch all for Christians being completely unable to substantiate their faith. They laugh at Mormons for the same reasons but don't realize they face the exact same issues.

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Agreed our faith (trust in God) is not blind, but rather based on real historical people and events. But at some point even with all the facts and logic, you need to make your faith your own. Trust.


Please elaborate on that crazy events happened? A man saying he was God? a man rising from the dead? A man saying we eat his body and blood? A man who says there is a Hell? A man who says marrriage is between one man and one woman?