Was the story made up after she and Joseph died for some unknown reason?

Or did she try to pass it off as a lie to avoid shame and the apostles twisted prophecy to legitimize it?

Is there some way she was a virgin, but somehow conceived?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Was the story made up after she and Joseph died for some unknown reason?

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The virgin birth, or Christ's impending birth, was mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament. I have no idea if science can actually explain it or not though. It's God though. That's all the science I need.

Woody2006 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Was the story made up after she and Joseph died for some unknown reason?

Or did she try to pass it off as a lie to avoid shame and the apostles twisted prophecy to legitimize it?

Is there some way she was a virgin, but somehow conceived?

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If there really is a God who can suspend the natural order, clearly he could make Mary conceive without having sex.

If miracles aren't actually real, then Mary got laid before having Jesus.

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"from a scientific perspective."

Its pretty simple: If Mary did have sexual relations, then that would make God a liar. If God is liar, then all of mankind is doomed on judgement day.

Well, the virgin birth was mentioned hundred of years before by the prophets. God says something, it happens. That's all the proof one should need.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Was the story made up after she and Joseph died for some unknown reason?

Or did she try to pass it off as a lie to avoid shame and the apostles twisted prophecy to legitimize it?

Is there some way she was a virgin, but somehow conceived?

---

If there really is a God who can suspend the natural order, clearly he could make Mary conceive without having sex.

If miracles aren't actually real, then Mary got laid before having Jesus.

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"from a scientific perspective."

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Are you saying that from a scientific perspective there is no God? I'm not sure what you're asking.

Is there a way for a girl to get pregnant without having sex? I mean, I'm pretty sure that was WAAAAY before test tube babies.

The "virgin birth" was only mentioned once in the Old Testament (Isaiah 7:14) and the word they use for virgin could also be translated as "young woman" and in fact is in at least one other verse of the Old Testament. And apparently the writers of Mark and John didn't think it was important enough to put in the Bible.

The interesting part is that while the original Hebrew doesn't necessarily mean virgin, the Latin Greek (thanks AggieFrank) word in the Septuagint does. I'm personally convinced that the writer of Matthew just dug through the Septuagint looking for references to the messiah he could use to embellish his narrative, even if it didn't always make sense (ie Jesus riding into Jerusalem while simultaneously on a donkey and a colt, the result of a misunderstanding of Zechariah 9:9).

But unless someone in the ancient world figured out in vitro fertilization then no, there's not a scientific answer.

What's worst?

Scenario 1; God doesn't exist, we die, we cease to exist forevermore.

Scenario 2; God does exist, we die not knowing Christ, we stand before an angry God and spend an eternity away from him.

Oddity said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Was the story made up after she and Joseph died for some unknown reason?

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The virgin birth, or Christ's impending birth, was mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament. I have no idea if science can actually explain it or not though. It's God though. That's all the science I need.

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The nativity narrative and virgin birth were clearly later added as others have stated and claiming virgin birth was basically so common a claim it's a cliche.

The Old Testament is not the word of god, not accurate and not a book of prophecy.

Woody2006 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Was the story made up after she and Joseph died for some unknown reason?

Or did she try to pass it off as a lie to avoid shame and the apostles twisted prophecy to legitimize it?

Is there some way she was a virgin, but somehow conceived?

---

If there really is a God who can suspend the natural order, clearly he could make Mary conceive without having sex.

If miracles aren't actually real, then Mary got laid before having Jesus.

---

"from a scientific perspective."

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Are you saying that from a scientific perspective there is no God? I'm not sure what you're asking.

Is there a way for a girl to get pregnant without having sex? I mean, I'm pretty sure that was WAAAAY before test tube babies.

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If you were to approach a subject from a scientific perspective, can we take into account God suspending natural order and miracles?

No, it is not scientific, to answer the titular question.

Rocag said:

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The "virgin birth" was only mentioned once in the Old Testament (Isaiah 7:14) and the word they use for virgin could also be translated as "young woman" and in fact is in at least one other verse of the Old Testament. And apparently the writers of Mark and John didn't think it was important enough to put in the Bible.

The interesting part is that while the original Hebrew doesn't necessarily mean virgin, the Latin word in the Septuagint does. I'm personally convinced that the writer of Matthew just dug through the Septuagint looking for references to the messiah he could use to embellish his narrative, even if it didn't always make sense (ie Jesus riding into Jerusalem while simultaneously on a donkey and a colt, the result of a misunderstanding of Zechariah 9:9).

But unless someone in the ancient world figured out in vitro fertilization then no, there's not a scientific answer.

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Isn't the Septuagint a KOINE GREEK translation, rather than Latin?

I do not know about Aramaic, Hebrew or Koine, but in English "colt" is a word for a young donkey.

BTW, I agree that the Gospels were retconned.

You're completely correct on that. Sorry, I had a brainfart there.

The donkey and colt thing is interesting because they are the same thing, and if you read the verse in Zechariah it's clear the author was just repeating himself. The author of Matthew thought otherwise and had Jesus ride in on two animals at once, while Mark and Luke had Jesus on just one donkey. It's funny and gives some insight into how Matthew was written.

That verse for reference:

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Zechariah 9:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

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Rocag said:

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You're completely correct on that. Sorry, I had a brainfart there.

The donkey and colt thing is interesting because they are the same thing, and if you read the verse in Zechariah it's clear the author was just repeating himself. The author of Matthew thought otherwise and had Jesus ride in on two animals at once, while Mark and Luke had Jesus on just one donkey. It's funny and gives some insight into how Matthew was written.

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Yep

dargscisyhp said:

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No, it is not scientific, to answer the titular question.

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What is not scientific?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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No, it is not scientific, to answer the titular question.

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What is not scientific?

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Parthenogenesis in humans.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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No, it is not scientific, to answer the titular question.

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What is not scientific?

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The virgin birth.

I know that. What happened?

That's quite outside the scope of whether or not it is scientific. I don't know what happened. I could tell you my suspicions, but why would you be interested in that?

Can the virgin birth be explained from a scientific perspective? No, nor does it need to be.

Woody2006 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Was the story made up after she and Joseph died for some unknown reason?

Or did she try to pass it off as a lie to avoid shame and the apostles twisted prophecy to legitimize it?

Is there some way she was a virgin, but somehow conceived?

---

If there really is a God who can suspend the natural order, clearly he could make Mary conceive without having sex.

If miracles aren't actually real, then Mary got laid before having Jesus.

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In real world?

Yes, Mary had the sechs. She WAS betrothed. Probably banged a shepherd and then lied to Joseph. Joseph raised another man's kid. He will start a long and not so proud at times tradition.

Ok, hopefully yall can recognize that as tongue in cheek but it honestly is pretty much the ONLY way in real world. Mary got knocked up by a side piece the old fashioned way. She also will start a long and not so proud tradition.

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Can the virgin birth be explained from a scientific perspective?

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No, meaning that we cannot repeat the events as they occured in a lab over and over to study and examine. We cannot do this with creation, Jesus walking on water, raising Lazerus from the dead, multipling the bread and fish, etc.

We may be able to apply a little bit of forensic science in looking at the pieces of information that we do have. We do have Mary and Joesphes recorded reaction when given the news.

1. Yes we do have the book of Isaiah. The word could be translated Young Woman but it can also be translated Virgin. So which is it? If this were the only verse, and your like me, you would want more info to make that case.
2. The Greek translation of the OT, the Septuagint, rendered almah as parthenos, a word which means virgin. This is signifigant because teh Septuagint pre-dates the life of Jesus by at least 100 years. This is huge. Before Jesus was born, before the writings of the NT, the ancient world understood what Isiah 7 was claiming.
3. Common sense: Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin (young woman) will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

• Interpretive option A: Young woman - How would this be a sign given that young women have children all of the time:
• Interpretive option B: Virgin - How would a virgin having a child be a Sign?
• Which better fits the description of what a 'sign' is?

4. Matthew's account in terms other than Virgin: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
5. Joseph's reaction: 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. If the child is his, why would He send her away? His reaction to the news is consistent with the child not being his.
6. This event claims to fulfill OT prophesy. Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet. How many young women had babies in the last 700 years compared to how many virgins had babies?
7. Luke's account in Mary's words : Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Timeline: 700ish years BC prophesy is made. Young woman or child? Which fits the context of being a 'sign'? 200 years BC, Greek OT translates word as Virgin. 2is BC Virgin Birth described without using the word 'virgin'. Later that centure Matthew and Luke give accounts with words from different interviews. Mary and Joesphs.

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

I believe a virgin had a child and that child was God. He was with us and we killed Him.

She had sex and gave birth. The end.