Dad-O-Lot said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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jkag89 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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Can. 749 1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.


if you have to ask "wonder if this is ex cathedra?" the answer is that its not.

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Who approved this canon?

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Canon Law are rules in which the Catholic Church governs itself. Do you not think any organization should be able to do that? I linked a good essay giving the reasoning behind Papal Infallibility and how it is applicable, so I'm uncertain why you are going down this rabbit hole?

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I think canon law should be the Holy Word of God. The Church doesn't have the ability to invent concepts like papal infallibility hundreds of years after the beginning of the Church.

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Sure they do. Who do you think determined which writings were "scriptural" or not? It wasn't Jesus.

He didn't give Peter a book and say, "Upon this Rock I will build my Church".

Jesus gave the Apostles authority to "bind and loose" and that authority has been passed down through the Centuries within the "Church". They didn't say at some point, "OK guys, we have our book, our work is done".

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God determined what was Scripture. The Church just recognized what God had already determined. God doesn't need to appeal to anyone other than himself.

All this talk on the death penalty, but no mention of what Christ said when actually confronted w/ a case in which its use was justified by the law?

Thaddeus73 said:

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Pope Francis said that the Death Penalty is contrary to the gospel. I'm assuming this means that he believes that it should never ever be applied. This flies in the face of the Council of Trent, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and previous popes who all agreed that it is OK to use.

What thinkest thou?

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Seems Pope Francis has changed doctrine.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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jkag89 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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Can. 749 1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.


if you have to ask "wonder if this is ex cathedra?" the answer is that its not.

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Who approved this canon?

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Canon Law are rules in which the Catholic Church governs itself. Do you not think any organization should be able to do that? I linked a good essay giving the reasoning behind Papal Infallibility and how it is applicable, so I'm uncertain why you are going down this rabbit hole?

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I think canon law should be the Holy Word of God. The Church doesn't have the ability to invent concepts like papal infallibility hundreds of years after the beginning of the Church.

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Sure they do. Who do you think determined which writings were "scriptural" or not? It wasn't Jesus.

He didn't give Peter a book and say, "Upon this Rock I will build my Church".

Jesus gave the Apostles authority to "bind and loose" and that authority has been passed down through the Centuries within the "Church". They didn't say at some point, "OK guys, we have our book, our work is done".

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God determined what was Scripture. The Church just recognized what God had already determined. God doesn't need to appeal to anyone other than himself.

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did he leave it in a hotel night stand for the "The Church" to recognize?

I'm not sure that is a statement worth mocking. If Scripture is the inerrant, God Breathed inspired Word, and the Holy Spirit guides and protects the Church, then yes, God was aware and the guiding force behind Scripture being "chosen"

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I'm not sure that is a statement worth mocking. If Scripture is the inerrant, God Breathed inspired Word, and the Holy Spirit guides and protects the Church, then yes, God was aware and the guiding force behind Scripture being "chosen"

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List the books chosen.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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jkag89 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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Can. 749 1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.


if you have to ask "wonder if this is ex cathedra?" the answer is that its not.

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Who approved this canon?

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Canon Law are rules in which the Catholic Church governs itself. Do you not think any organization should be able to do that? I linked a good essay giving the reasoning behind Papal Infallibility and how it is applicable, so I'm uncertain why you are going down this rabbit hole?

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I think canon law should be the Holy Word of God. The Church doesn't have the ability to invent concepts like papal infallibility hundreds of years after the beginning of the Church.

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Sure they do. Who do you think determined which writings were "scriptural" or not? It wasn't Jesus.

He didn't give Peter a book and say, "Upon this Rock I will build my Church".

Jesus gave the Apostles authority to "bind and loose" and that authority has been passed down through the Centuries within the "Church". They didn't say at some point, "OK guys, we have our book, our work is done".

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God determined what was Scripture. The Church just recognized what God had already determined. God doesn't need to appeal to anyone other than himself.

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Can you expand on exactly how this happened? Did God speak to an individual? Did the Holy Spirit guide some sort of committee? If the latter, who made up this committee? Did it have an individual considered to be "in charge" who called the committee to meet, or chaired their meetings? Did all the committee members share a particular religious denomination?

St. Paul in his hearing before Festus says, "If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death." (Acts 25:11) Very clearly this constitutes an acknowledgment on the part of the apostle to the gentiles that the state continues to have the power of life and death in the administration of justice. And of course when we first encounter Paul (Saul at that point), he is cooperating in the stoning to death of St. Stephen for the crime of blasphemy.

Pope Pius XII said, "In the case of the death penalty the State does not dispose of the individual's right to life. Rather public authority limits itself to depriving the offender of the good of life in expiation for his guilt, after he, through his crime, deprived himself of his own right to life."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent, composed under the supervision of St. Charles Borromeo, stated: "Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thou shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives."

https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2015/03/16/the-traditional-case-for-capital-punishment/

Any Pope is allowed to have and state personal opinions about politics, scripture, social issues, etc. However, unless he is speaking, and I forget the latin phrase, as the head of the Catholic church, then his ideas carry the weight of a well respected Catholic priest.

As an aside, I have studied this issue in scripture for years, and still have not come to a hard and fast, solid conclusion.

The Lone Stranger said:

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Any Pope is allowed to have and state personal opinions about politics, scripture, social issues, etc. However, unless he is speaking, and I forget the latin phrase, as the head of the Catholic church, then his ideas carry the weight of a well respected Catholic priest.

As an aside, I have studied this issue in scripture for years, and still have not come to a hard and fast, solid conclusion.

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The phrase you are looking for is ex cathedra. It's only been invoked twice in the 2,000 year history of the church. Both times since the 19th century. Everything a pope says or writes, even on matters of faith and morals, is not ipso facto an ex cathedra, infallible pronouncement. The article linked above by jkag explains it very well.

Thaddeus73 said:

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St. Paul in his hearing before Festus says, "If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death." (Acts 25:11) Very clearly this constitutes an acknowledgment on the part of the apostle to the gentiles that the state continues to have the power of life and death in the administration of justice. And of course when we first encounter Paul (Saul at that point), he is cooperating in the stoning to death of St. Stephen for the crime of blasphemy.

Pope Pius XII said, "In the case of the death penalty the State does not dispose of the individual's right to life. Rather public authority limits itself to depriving the offender of the good of life in expiation for his guilt, after he, through his crime, deprived himself of his own right to life."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent, composed under the supervision of St. Charles Borromeo, stated: "Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thou shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives."

https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2015/03/16/the-traditional-case-for-capital-punishment/

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Thanks for sharing this. I do not intend to be a disrupter, but reading the above on the death penalty juxtaposed with what PSJP2 said about the death penalty and what Francis is saying, one could interpret the two positions as being different teaching points on the same subject ...

I agree...Aquinas and Augustine and the Council of Trent all said that the death penalty is justified...As did the "good" thief on the cross...

Thaddeus73 said:

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I agree...Aquinas and Augustine and the Council of Trent all said that the death penalty is justified...As did the "good" thief on the cross...

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Then Francis changed doctrine. But the Roman Catholic church can't do that.

I don't think you understand what the word doctrine means in this context.

What context?

I think it's more a question of the magisterial authority.

Catholic here and I'm not a fan of Francis.

The musings of a pope or any clergy are not doctrine. Doctrine is the teaching of the Church.

But even so doctrine can be changed, but not dogma (per the Roman definitions).

What about punishment for climate change deniers?

k2aggie07 said:

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The musings of a pope or any clergy are not doctrine. Doctrine is the teaching of the Church.

But even so doctrine can be changed, but not dogma (per the Roman definitions).

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I would think all clergy would be in line with the teaching of the church, especially the pope. He can teach something contrary to doctrine and have no consequence?

He's only human. People have opinions.

k2aggie07 said:

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He's only human. People have opinions.

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flesh and blood he's made
born to make mistakes.

k2aggie07 said:

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He's only human. People have opinions.

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So it's a matter of ignorance. Someone should inform him that his opinion is wrong according to the church he is supposedly the head of.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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He's only human. People have opinions.

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So it's a matter of ignorance. Someone should inform him that his opinion is wrong according to the church he is supposedly the head of.

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Actually it is in line with The Catechism of the Catholic Church as already posted. As pointed out by k2 you are confusing dogma with doctrine.