Hebrews 12:14

Sorry if this has been asked before.

What does this say about the repentant thief at Calvary? What does it say about deathbed conversion more generally? What if there's no apparent imminent death when someone gets saved and they die in a car crash two weeks later having shown some clear evidence of regeneration but certainly falling fall short of the decades of sanctification other believers go through?

Who's holiness is required? If you're a believer, when you stand before God he sees Christ and his holiness. Not anything you did. The best you can do is like filthy rags to him. Therefore it doesn't matter if you accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit while hanging on the cross or early in life. Doesn't seem fair? Study Christ's parable about the workers in the field and the wages they were paid. This is what he's talking about imo.

Short answer from Catholic perspective we are good, if we are in union and friendship with God (no mortal sin) being in a "State of Grace" means having "Sanctifying Grace"

Catholics do not ascribe to once saved always saved. Our life is not a single act, but continous process of following our Lord. Following his laws (love God and neighbor, 10 commandments), good works (spiritual and corporal works of mercy cloth, feed the poor, spirtual), while at the same time we are being tempted by the world (devil), and we messing up (still sinning), making mistakes along the way (this is where the discipline of the lord comes in), once we mess up we ask for forgiveness (confession) and resolving to do better. Think of Prodigal Son was back in reunion with his father after all his mistakes (after he repented).

2) Thief on Cross was in union with God,he is saved and then dies (no mortal sin, in state of sanctifying grace). Now let's assume the thief does not immediately die and comes down from cross and lives another 10 years, he goes back to his old ways of stealing- he is not saved.

Here is entire chapter 12 of Hebrews - so folks can read and understand entire context.


Hebrews 12 1-29 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith. For the sake of the joy that lay before him he endured the cross, despising its shame, and has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God.3Consider how he endured such opposition from sinners, in order that you may not grow weary and lose heart.4In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood.5You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons:"My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges."

7Endure your trials as "discipline"; God treats you as sons. For what "son" is there whom his father does not discipline?8If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but *******s.9Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not [then] submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live?10They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness.11At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it.12So strengthen your drooping hands and your weak knees.13Make straight paths for your feet, that what is lame may not be dislocated but healed.

Penalties of Disobedience.14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

15See to it that no one be deprived of the grace of God, that no bitter root spring up and cause trouble, through which many may become defiled, 16that no one be an immoral or profane person like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.17For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit his father's blessing, he was rejected because he found no opportunity to change his mind, even though he sought the blessing with tears.18You have not approached that which could be touched and a blazing fire and gloomy darkness and storm19and a trumpet blast and a voice speaking words such that those who heard begged that no message be further addressed to them,20for they could not bear to hear the command: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned."21Indeed, so fearful was the spectacle that Moses said, "I am terrified and trembling."22No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, 23and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,24and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel

25See that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much more in our case if we turn away from the one who warns from heaven 26His voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, "I will once more shake not only earth but heaven." 27That phrase, "once more," points to [the] removal of shaken, created things, so that what is unshaken may remain. 28Therefore, we who are receiving the unshakable kingdom should have gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to God in reverence and awe. 29For our God is a consuming fire.

*Bible Notes: [12:113] Christian life is to be inspired not only by the Old Testament men and women of faith (Heb 12:1) but above all by Jesus. As the architect of Christian faith, he had himself to endure the cross before receiving the glory of his triumph (Heb 12:2). Reflection on his sufferings should give his followers courage to continue the struggle, if necessary even to the shedding of blood (Heb 12:34). Christians should regard their own sufferings as the affectionate correction of the Lord, who loves them as a father loves his children.

* [12:1517] Esau serves as an example in two ways: his profane attitude illustrates the danger of apostasy, and his inability to secure a blessing afterward illustrates the impossibility of repenting after falling away (see Heb 6:46).

* [12:1829] As a final appeal for adherence to Christian teaching, the two covenants, of Moses and of Christ, are compared. The Mosaic covenant, the author argues, is shown to have originated in fear of God and threats of divine punishment (Heb 12:1821). The covenant in Christ gives us direct access to God (Heb 12:22), makes us members of the Christian community, God's children, a sanctified people (Heb 12:23), who have Jesus as mediator to speak for us (Heb 12:24). Not to heed the voice of the risen Christ is a graver sin than the rejection of the word of Moses (Heb 12:2526). Though Christians fall away, God's kingdom in Christ will remain and his justice will punish those guilty of deserting it (Heb 12:2829).

John1248 said:

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Who's holiness is required? If you're a believer, when you stand before God he sees Christ and his holiness. Not anything you did. The best you can do is like filthy rags to him. Therefore it doesn't matter if you accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit while hanging on the cross or early in life. Doesn't seem fair? Study Christ's parable about the workers in the field and the wages they were paid. This is what he's talking about imo.

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John, we agree Jesus provides us with salvation ( he is the way the truth and the life-Faith first), but we must also partcipate (free will).God does see what we do- he judges us on our love of God and others (do we obey his commandments?). Faith without works is dead- James 2:17

The issue I have with Calvanist teaching is in their attempt to give all the glory to Jesus and God (this is a very good thing), we remove our responsiblity. There is no action on our part. We agree God/Jesus does the heavy lifting (99.9%) but we still participate (0.1%), we still have free will, the choice is ours.

Example-Pharoah does have a choice in the matter! Exodus 8:15 Yet Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

I get what you're saying. Grace is not a license to sin. As it unfortunately seems to more and more practiced in today's churches. Actually believers have a tremendous responsibility or responsibilities. However, when it comes to justification or salvation the only requirement is a profession of faith in Christ. This is fairly explicit in Paul's writings.

Agree again. You and I think alike. It sure seems some Christians have a hard time accepting grace and being joyful through all the ups and downs of life.

Happy Thanksgiving my friend!

Edited to add that my sister went to be with the Lord yesterday. She was not a preacher, missionary, etc. She did not give up all her money or work tirelessly with the homeless, poor, etc. She was simply a great mother and wife who raised four great kids who know the Lord. And she knew the Lord and accepted Christ as her Savior years ago.

And I know she is in Heaven with Christ today because of God's grace manifested through Christ. It was nothing she did or did not do. It was what God did through the perfect sacrifice of Christ. And she accepted that free gift of grace.

John1248 said:

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I get what you're saying. Grace is not a license to sin. As it unfortunately seems to more and more practiced in today's churches. Actually believers have a tremendous responsibility or responsibilities. However, when it comes to justification or salvation the only requirement is a profession of faith in Christ. This is fairly explicit in Paul's writings.

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1) I guess Calvanist lump it all togher and Catholics spell it out in much greater detail on what faith looks like (calls for action- charity and love and spells out the consequences of sin, obeying the fathers will). This is obviously the responsibility you are speaking of.

But I do see downside with the once saved always saved notion: Example: I am in a bible study with a lot of wonderful protestant brothers and it blows me away how they think going to church (keeping Lord's day Holy) is not that necessary. Basically their stance is ok to miss church, going to church a few times a month is just fine. Also their stance on dabbling in sin is much different from Catholic view.

2) I am familar with Paul's words but you also have Jesus words It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Matt. 7:21 Many verses in bible on losing salvation.

Catholic Answers- Once Saved Always Saved

Have a Wonderful Thanksgiving- We are agree brother- Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life (fun to debate)

It is fun to discuss. I am confused by your statement "dabbling in sin". Do you mean not going to an actual church on Sunday? Or other stuff?

Have a great Thanksgiving!

John1248 said:

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Who's holiness is required? If you're a believer, when you stand before God he sees Christ and his holiness. Not anything you did. The best you can do is like filthy rags to him. Therefore it doesn't matter if you accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit while hanging on the cross or early in life. Doesn't seem fair? Study Christ's parable about the workers in the field and the wages they were paid. This is what he's talking about imo.

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As booboo I think was suggesting with his boldings in quoting the entire chapter is that this holiness in verse 14 is not a reference to the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, but is one we actually attain in sanctification. To be clear, I don't think the verse endorsed justification by works. And for the record the works of the believer are not filthy rags to God, though they have no saving value.

He does 100% of regeneration and justification but sanctification is synergistic. However, he will hold you fast in that process to ensure the work he's begun in you is completed.

And if you "go out from us," that is just proof it was never his work to begin with. I'm sure you've heard that before if you're familiar with Calvinism. I concede it is a somewhat subtle nuance, but I do think it's important to affirm that God will not let his work go unfinished in those who are truly his.

wargograw said:

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John1248 said:

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Who's holiness is required? If you're a believer, when you stand before God he sees Christ and his holiness. Not anything you did. The best you can do is like filthy rags to him. Therefore it doesn't matter if you accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit while hanging on the cross or early in life. Doesn't seem fair? Study Christ's parable about the workers in the field and the wages they were paid. This is what he's talking about imo.

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As booboo I think was suggesting with his boldings in quoting the entire chapter is that this holiness in verse 14 is not a reference to the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, but is one we actually attain in sanctification. To be clear, I don't think the verse endorsed justification by works. And for the record the works of the believer are not filthy rags to God, though they have no saving value.

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Yes, you confused me by bringing up death bed conversions, which in this case I don't think has much to do with the verse you quoted. This verse has more to do with being a good witness and example so that others will be drawn to Christ through you. Obviously, someone about to expire doesn't have much time for that do they? However, if they truly accept Christ,(obviously only God can judge that) they will join us in the kingdom. No matter how many times they may have missed church. ;-)

See Matthew 20 1-16

And the works you do for the love of God will earn you crowns in the kingdom. So yes they mean something. But those works you do for yourself or those you think will earn you some favor with God will be burned up like straw.

Now, l want you to read John 6 starting at verse 25 and let's discuss.

Justification != salvation.

Hope that helps.

I guess that reading makes sense, just have never heard it taken that way. Though now that I think of it, all the guys I had heard mention it in sermons could have been using it in your sense. I took it to mean it took holiness to see the Lord (in Heaven).

I think it makes sense. I mean look at the first part of that verse. "Strive for peace with everyone,". If you and I were cussing each other or if I were cussing you it'd be pretty hard to see Christ in me wouldn't it? And if you were not a believer how would it make you feel about "Christians?"

Sorry to hear of your loss. Hope your family is doing as well as possible.

Dr. Watson said:

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Sorry to hear of your loss. Hope your family is doing as well as possible.

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Thank you my friend. It is well with all our souls. My sister was a great Christian lady. Was in the first group of Diamond Darlings and introduced me to Rick Perry and John Sharp. Lots of great stories and memories this Thanksgiving despite the grief. And I know she had the best Thanksgiving feast with my parents, grand parents, and all her deceased friends. God is good!

And we plan to BTHO LSU for Bev! She wanted it for Ole Miss and watched it so now we got to do it again,

dermdoc said:

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It is fun to discuss. I am confused by your statement "dabbling in sin". Do you mean not going to an actual church on Sunday? Or other stuff?

Have a great Thanksgiving!

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1) To clarify a few points- we are all sinners, we all fall short, it is a constant battle to obey God and battle temptation (this is for all christians- Catholic, Protestant). I think once saved always saved has a very dangerous slipperly slope of thinking we are good. When It is a constant process: the blood of Christ must be applied to our lives repeatedly through faith and obedience to the word of God:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:7-9).

2) Here are a few dabbling in sin examples: drinking and partying hard on Saturday night (nothing wrong with drinking and dancing) but then missing church (Worship) the next day. Going to kids sporting events - example 2nd grade select baseball torunament game because my son will be an all star and then quit baseball in 7th grade (Nothing wrong with going to kids sporting events but it does become and issune when you miss church- worship of God. Sin is where church/ worship of God is last.

3) Catholics have it clearly spelled out. It is a mortal sin (grave matter) if you miss church. Keep holy the Sabbath (Lord''s Day). Note there are some exceptions for travel, but it is clear this is a very serious matter. To be clear there are many Catholics in name only who only attend on Christmas and Easter, but they know where the bar is and they should be worshiping God every week at a minimum.

wargograw said:

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, but I do think it's important to affirm that God will not let his work go unfinished in those who are truly his.

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1) I don't know if I buy this vague statement "God will not let his work go unfinished in those who are truly his". How do you define "truly his"? Are we on autopilot, with no free will? Do believers still not struggle with sin and tempation? Can we no longer be lead astray?

2) I know in my faith journey, there are highs and lows (some days feel like praying other days not so much, still have temptations, I still sin). I feel like I have to say yes to God/Jesus every day and strive to do his will. It takes participation on my (our part). To be clear, the heavy lifting is by God, we just participate by letting God work through us.

3) I find it interesting King David walked with God (wrote Psalms) and then walks away (Bathsheba/Uriah), but then he repents and comes back. Judas walked with Jesus for roughly 3 years and turns away, Peter does the same and repents.



Modern Day Example: Billy Graham and Charles Templeton were the new young top preachers in 1940s and Templeton falls away and becomes an atheist. So here is a man who is committed to God "truly his" and then becomes an atheist decades later and remains so until his death. So was this man just living a lie for all those decades? I don't think so. Jesus parable of seeds, rings true= he was choked out by the weeds, or planted on rocky soil.

How do you know who is truly his? The Catholic answer is clear when we have sanctifying Grace (no mortal sin) in friendship with God. All friendships can end. It is a continual process of being friends, and when we mess up we say we are sorry.

In short Once Saved Always Saved is not true we can lose our salvation by throwing it away or walking away from God.

Catholics do not use courtroom analogy to model Justification.

"The most suitable analogy to describe Catholic's understanding of Justification is Family analogy. God is our Father and we are His (adopted) children. Adoption as sons of God is something biblical that Protestants also believe (cf. Romans 8:15, 23, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians 1:5). However their forensic Justification model cannot fit in the Family analogy. We are not only declared sons but also made and become sons (John 1:12, 1 John 3:1 & 5:1), become heir with Christ (Romans 8:17) and partake His divinity (2 Peter 1:4). In Family analogy we receive our adoption through our faith in Christ (Galatians 3:26), not because of any righteous (or unrighteous) things we did faith in Christ is a free gift from God. Once belong to the family of God, we have our duties and must obey household rules. No good human father will tell his children that because they are his, they can do whatever they like and there are no rule to obey and no duty in the house. At the same time a father won't tell his friends that his children must work in his house in order not to be thrown out of the house. Any human father wants his children to grow up and to become good persons, not to become criminals, drug addicts, prostitutes etc. and he is more than willing to help his children to achieve that goal. For example he is willing to spend money for their education (free gift from him, not student loan). He spent time with his children to teach them not to associate with wrong companies; he makes sure they are in good health etc. Obviously his children must cooperate with him and do their part. Just because the father pays the tuition fee they will not get the degree or skills unless they study. If they do not listen to their father's advice they may end up becoming member of gangs or drug addicts. Any human father will discipline his children for their own good when they do something wrong and reward them for being good (be it ice cream treat, a new bike etc.). The reward is obviously a gift from the father, not their wages for being good. Similarly our heavenly Father wants us, his children, to learn, to grow, to do our duty and to become mature, that is, to become like Him (Philippians 2:14). In the process He will also sometime discipline us for our own good (Hebrews 12:6) and will reward us, a gift from Him, when we well behave. This family analogy fits well with Catholic understanding of Justification it is a process through which we are made righteous."

booboo91 said:

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dermdoc said:

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It is fun to discuss. I am confused by your statement "dabbling in sin". Do you mean not going to an actual church on Sunday? Or other stuff?

Have a great Thanksgiving!

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1) To clarify a few points- we are all sinners, we all fall short, it is a constant battle to obey God and battle temptation (this is for all christians- Catholic, Protestant). I think once saved always saved has a very dangerous slipperly slope of thinking we are good. When It is a constant process: the blood of Christ must be applied to our lives repeatedly through faith and obedience to the word of God:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:7-9).

2) Here are a few dabbling in sin examples: drinking and partying hard on Saturday night (nothing wrong with drinking and dancing) but then missing church (Worship) the next day. Going to kids sporting events - example 2nd grade select baseball torunament game because my son will be an all star and then quit baseball in 7th grade (Nothing wrong with going to kids sporting events but it does become and issune when you miss church- worship of God. Sin is where church/ worship of God is last.

3) Catholics have it clearly spelled out. It is a mortal sin (grave matter) if you miss church. Keep holy the Sabbath (Lord''s Day). Note there are some exceptions for travel, but it is clear this is a very serious matter. To be clear there are many Catholics in name only who only attend on Christmas and Easter, but they know where the bar is and they should be worshiping God every week at a minimum.

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So basically it is about missing Sunday service. We go to all the Aggie away games and when we do, I try to spend some time Praising God and reading the Bible on Sunday's. We will agree to disagree,

dermdoc said:

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Edited to add that my sister went to be with the Lord yesterday. She was not a preacher, missionary, etc. She did not give up all her money or work tirelessly with the homeless, poor, etc. She was simply a great mother and wife who raised four great kids who know the Lord. And she knew the Lord and accepted Christ as her Savior years ago.

And I know she is in Heaven with Christ today because of God's grace manifested through Christ. It was nothing she did or did not do. It was what God did through the perfect sacrifice of Christ. And she accepted that free gift of grace.

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Prayers for your sister, you and family.

As you know, it is ok that your sister was not a preacher or missionary. As St. Paul says (summary) there are lots of roles in the body of christ.

dermdoc said:

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So basically it is about missing Sunday service. We go to all the Aggie away games and when we do, I try to spend some time Praising God and reading the Bible on Sunday's. We will agree to disagree,

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Edit: To be clear, there are exceptions when folks are traveling, who want to go to church but can't, but still strive to worship (This is not a sin). My issue with my bible study protestant brothers was that missing church was not a big deal. Their postion was, we are saved and we are good. So there was no urgency.

I will ask you the same questions: is it a sin to miss church on sunday? If I never go to church is that ok? If I never read the bible? If I never pray? Where do you draw the line and why?

How do you reconcile keeping all the other 10 commandments but ignoring this one keep holy Sabbath (Lord's Day)? Note: I can see Agie95 already getting fired up about the Sabbath.

I do not think it is a sin to miss church although we rarely do if we are able to go as I feel as if I have missed something. Personally, I need daily time with the Lord and think Christians who do not spend time praying and reading the Bible are missing out. I love my time with the Lord.

Historically, you have to remember that the early Christians had no Bible to read and little was said about formal church services to my knowledge.

So my view is that you need weekly or daily time with the Lord and God however you do it or you will miss out on the joy of fellowship with the Creator.

John1248 said:

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Now, l want you to read John 6 starting at verse 25 and let's discuss.

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Gladly, what did you want to point out? John 6 is the Catholics favorite chapter! The Eucharist, the Real Presence of Christ. I love the qualifiers and details verse 51 and Jesus doubles down in his explanation. .

The body of Christ is the church (Jesus is the head) but also Jesus is literally in bread and wine- it is true food. Highlighted a few verses you might want to discuss

John 6: 25 And when they found him across the sea they said to him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
Jesus answered them and said, "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal." So they said to him, "What can we do to accomplish the works of God?"

29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent." So they said to him, "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" So Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." So they said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." 35Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.

But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

The Jews murmured about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven," and they said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring among yourselves.
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father." As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?" He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.

The early Christians had the Scriptures. And they had liturgy daily - see acts 2:46. Originally the Christian liturgy was an extension of daily temple worship. This type continues today with the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the faithful.

Thanks. And Paul also instructed the church at Corinth on how to do services.

I misspoke,

dermdoc said:

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I do not think it is a sin to miss church although we rarely do if we are able to go as I feel as if I have missed something. Personally, I need daily time with the Lord and think Christians who do not spend time praying and reading the Bible are missing out. I love my time with the Lord.

Historically, you have to remember that the early Christians had no Bible to read and little was said about formal church services to my knowledge.

So my view is that you need weekly or daily time with the Lord and God however you do it or you will miss out on the joy of fellowship with the Creator.

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Agreed with much of what you said and completely understand where you are coming from. My comments are not directed at you, but overall on how lax our society is becoming as Christians.

I think the rules, laws, loving guide rails of the church help keep us on track. And when Chrisitans do not keep Holy the Sabbath (Lord's Day) we do a huge disservice. It is like those crazy Christians that say Abortion is ok, or other false notions that secular society is pushing on us.

We know we should keep all the other commandments- don't murder, lie, cheat, honor parents, put God first. why do we ignore this one 10 commandment?

Answer we should not. It is a sin. We should strive all we can to go to church, pray and worship our God. Make time for him. He should be #1 (I know you agree with this). This means God is in front of Aggie football (there are churches in College station), kids sports and hard night of partying.

Note: to be clear I miss church at times, things pop up, life is busy. But I know it is not a good thing and really strive to attend, make up for up with daily mass.

Agree. And we live in College Station now so we can do Aggie fb and church. Away games are tougher.

I guess my question is that if somebody does not go to church on Sunday and spends most of the day praying, reflecting on the Lord's blessings, reading the Bible, being restful, etc. sinning? Versus those who go to church every Sunday as a routine and nothing else? I do not know.

I think the difficulty is in why? Why do we want to decide if it's sinful or not? What is better - to go partake of the gifts with the whole Church in communion, in obedience to Christ and the Scriptures? Or to stay apart and worship alone?

I think the better case is clear. So why make an excuse or a case for staying apart?

Is it a sin? I don't know; who cares? Do what is best for your soul. Christianity is not a solo event.

The "just me and my Bible" attitude is one of the saddest fruits of the American evangelical faith.

k2aggie07 said:

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I think the difficulty is in why? Why do we want to decide if it's sinful or not? What is better - to go partake of the gifts with the whole Church in communion, in obedience to Christ and the Scriptures? Or to stay apart and worship alone?

I think the better case is clear. So why make an excuse or a case for staying apart?

Is it a sin? I don't know; who cares? Do what is best for your soul. Christianity is not a solo event.

The "just me and my Bible" attitude is one of the saddest fruits of the American evangelical faith.

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Agree but it is pretty tough to go to church when you are traveling on Sunday.

dermdoc said:

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I guess my question is that if somebody does not go to church on Sunday and spends most of the day praying, reflecting on the Lord's blessings, reading the Bible, being restful, etc. sinning? Versus those who go to church every Sunday as a routine and nothing else? I do not know.

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1) Agree with K2, we are meant for fellowship

2) Also do not think it is a sin, if you really try to attend church and it does not happen and you offer up prayer and read bible by yourself. Note: Can always use google maps and other aps to find local congregations and church times and mix it in when you are traveling. Neat to see how other communities pray.

3) Don't beat yourself up. My main issue complaint was how complacent some of my Christian brothers were on this issue and it really surprised me. Their stance 1-2 times a month, is good, go when you can. No big deal, no priority.

We have beaten this dead horse.

Agree brother.