Aggrad,

Since the Exodus is all made up and presume most of the OT is made up (Sarcasm).

Please help me understand where you think the Jewish people came from? Maybe we can find some common ground and then look at the limited of evidence and then work backwards.

Questions:
1) Do you believe in Merenptah Stele the Egyptian Inscription that mentions defeat of Israel in Canaan- roughly 1200BC? Is this evidence of Israel? See KA Kitchen comments- pg. 451 - KA Kitchen- Reliability of the Old Testament

2) Do you believe King David lived near 1000BC? - see pgs 92-93

3) Do you believe in King Solomon and the Temple being built in roughly 957BC?

4) Do you believe in the Jewish Exile of the Northern Kingdom- 722BC (Assyria) and Southern kingdom in (597BC Babylonia)

Why did you add the sarcasm parentheses? What you said is true. Exodus is not historical. Nor is most of the OT. The Israelites were a group of Semites in Canaan who developed their own customs and religion. David probably existed. That doesn't make him a great king of a great kingdom. Solomon probably existed. Might have built the temple. He almost certainly didn't rule over the empire described in the Bible. There's no evidence of it and evidence of greater sophistication in other Canaanite polities.

The above to posters have already basically handled your question. They were Canaanite. They worship Canaanite gods and use Canaanite technology and alphabet. Even as you get more recent, the main distinguishing factor is an absence of pig bones, which other Canaanites liked to chow down on.

The major inaccuracies of the bible historically speaking occur from genesis through joshua's conquest. Basically their origin story is a myth, I would guess descended from the habiru, but there is some dispute on that. However there was certainly a small kingdom and unique culture that developed. And I consider the davidic kingdom to be real although the size of it may be exaggerated. The existence of the kingdoms of israel and judah I don't dispute, it's their supposed origin stories.

Dr. Watson said:

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Why did you add the sarcasm parentheses? What you said is true. Exodus is not historical. Nor is most of the OT. The Israelites were a group of Semites in Canaan who developed their own customs and religion. David probably existed. That doesn't make him a great king of a great kingdom. Solomon probably existed. Might have built the temple. He almost certainly didn't rule over the empire described in the Bible. There's no evidence of it and evidence of greater sophistication in other Canaanite polities.

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I put sarcasm in there because my main objection is against the claims "ALL" the evidence is in and things did not happen. The insinuation is the OT is complete fabrication and made up. When that is not true. The main truth is the farther and farther you go back in time, the evidence is much very rare.

I will quote KA Kitchen again- " so those who squawk intermittently, " No trace of the Hebrews has ever been found" (so of course, no exodus!) are wasting their breath the entirety of Egypt's administrative records at all periods in the Delta is lost; and monumental texts are also nearly nil. And, as pharaohs ever monumentalized defeats on temple walls, no record of the successful exit of a large bunch of foreign slaves (with a loss of a full chariot squadron) would ever have been memorialized by any king, in temples in the Delta or anywhere else).- see more details on page 246

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Exodus is Not historical

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The very limited evidence we have does not conflict with the " big picture events". Example: The Merneptah Stele places the Jews (Hebrews) right where they should be in 1200s BC, struggling and battling with their neighbors- read book of Judges. It is small groups involved in tribal warfare (trying to embrace their new laws, but still hanging on to old and intermarrying with the existing cultures).


Here is the very limited concrete evidence we have- must be written on stone to survive. Few words. That is the evidence up to 1200 BC. Note: there is also some clues archaeological digs.

Tangent comment- Most/All ancient societies/ religions across globe speak of epic flood. This is before internet no way for societies to communicate: North America, South America (Aztecs), Asia, Africa, Australia (Aborigines)- speak of great flood

Dr. Watson said:

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David probably existed. That doesn't make him a great king of a great kingdom. Solomon probably existed. Might have built the temple. He almost certainly didn't rule over the empire described in the Bible. There's no evidence of it and evidence of greater sophistication in other Canaanite polities.

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Dr. Watson

This is a very important point! Per the bible, the high point of the Jews was King David and Solomon around 1000 BC- and we have very limited evidence. This is when Jews finally have some stability, time to write things down,build a true temple (this would be the biggest footprint left by the Jews).

Question- So if there is very little evidence at the Jewish high point at 1000BC how are you going to find more evidence/ data going back another 250-500 years when the Jews are just a small tribe intermixed with the other tribes in Canaanites

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He almost certainly didn't rule over the empire described in the Bible. There's no evidence of it and evidence of greater sophistication in other Canaanite polities.

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I think it is important to think of perspective. Bible does not say they were the most powerful nation (other than they had God on their side while they obeyed his rules). King David and Solomon rule lasted less than 100 years and they finally were able to dominate/ward off the other tribes, nations in the region. It was a time of short stablity for the jewish people.

Example: Think of it as a high point in Columbia (South America), people would not mistake Columbia as the World power greater than USA or China.

Rocag said:

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You're creating a strawman argument, booboo. I don't think anyone has said absolutely everything in the Old Testament is untrue, so pointing out specific things that are true doesn't disprove the entire argument against the overall accuracy of the Old Testament. There are still a lot of claims in there that a demonstrably untrue which is especially a problem for Christians who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. If it's all or mostly metaphor then no, I would agree that isn't much of a concern.

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Not trying to create a strawman. Trying to make folks back up claims things "NEVER HAPPENED" when they have little evidence to make this blanket statement.

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so pointing out specific things that are true doesn't disprove the entire argument against the overall accuracy of the Old Testament. There are still a lot of claims in there that a demonstrably untrue which is especially a problem for Christians who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. If it's all or mostly metaphor then no, I would agree that isn't much of a concern.vFinding a specific thing mentioned in the Bible doesn't prove the text completely true any more than Heinrich Schliemann's finding of Troy proved the Greek pantheon existed as depicted in the Iliad.

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Agreed, not every historical truth means every exact word is accurate in OT Bible. Catholic's believe these historical events of bible are generally true and we learn from this history of the Jewish people (good and bad behavior). Authors of OT use different writing styles and use lots of symbolism to provide us with the moral of the story (message they want to convey). So in the OT we have real historical people, events, locations in comparison to the book of Mormon.

Aggrad08 said:

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The above to posters have already basically handled your question. They were Canaanite. They worship Canaanite gods and use Canaanite technology and alphabet. Even as you get more recent, the main distinguishing factor is an absence of pig bones, which other Canaanites liked to chow down on.

The major inaccuracies of the bible historically speaking occur from genesis through joshua's conquest. Basically their origin story is a myth, I would guess descended from the habiru, but there is some dispute on that. However there was certainly a small kingdom and unique culture that developed. And I consider the davidic kingdom to be real although the size of it may be exaggerated. The existence of the kingdomsof israel and judah I don't dispute, it's their supposed origin stories.

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Aggrad,

1) Thanks- so we agree that King David lived- so we agree at 1000BC and maybe a little earlier 1200BC Jews are in Canaan? Can you show me the mountain of evidence that king david lived? As I made the point earlier. This is the high point of Jewish culture (biggest footprint) so why would we expect to see more evidence futher back in time?

2) Maybe I am missing something but I don't see a huge discrepancy from your point and the bible? We have the OT placing the Jews in Canaan living, struggling with the other tribes (slow transition to God's law). And what you are telling me is the basically the same thing

3) As I understand it the OT "generally" matches up with the history we have (working in reverse order we have Romans (NT), Greeks (books of Maccabees in Catholic and Orthdox bible), Persians, Babylonians, Assyrians, local tribes of Canaan and the Egyptians. Then when we have lacking evidence it becomes a myth/ made up. They decided they would be slaves. (sounds like a good myth point).

I would point to the Dead Sea Scrolls- same thing was said about reliablity of the OT until we found the scrolls. It proves how serious Jews took their religion.

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1) Thanks- so we agree that King David lived- so we agree at 1000BC and maybe a little earlier 1200BC Jews are in Canaan? Can you show me the mountain of evidence that king david lived? As I made the point earlier. This is the high point of Jewish culture (biggest footprint) so why would we expect to see more evidence futher back in time?

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A mountain no. But far more than nothing, enough to substantiate it's existence, which is far more than what we have earlier, and unlike earlier, there is nothing explicitly contradicting this. The bible actually makes very specific claims that would leave very big footprints. If we abandon literal text, the footprints can grow smaller.

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2) Maybe I am missing something but I don't see a huge discrepancy from your point and the bible? We have the OT placing the Jews in Canaan living, struggling with the other tribes (slow transition to God's law). And what you are telling me is the basically the same thing

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As I stated previous, the entire origin story is what is false, not the early kingdom and captivity. The jews were never Egyptian slaves in huge (or any significant number). They were never outsiders who brutally conquered canaan. They were canaanite, and evolved out of that culture as a distinct group. Generally speaking, from a literal sense the bible is flat out false through joshua, and highly exaggerated until about 1 Samuel.

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3) As I understand it the OT "generally" matches up with the history we have (working in reverse order we have Romans (NT), Greeks (books of Maccabees in Catholic and Orthdox bible), Persians, Babylonians, Assyrians, local tribes of Canaan and the Egyptians. Then when we have lacking evidence it becomes a myth/ made up. They decided they would be slaves. (sounds like a good myth point).

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It's not just missing evidence. As has been stated frustratingly many times there is very good evidence that the events in the exodus and Joshua did not happen. Evidence strong enough that you've had to acquiesce the books are at best a major exaggeration. And you should also note, that while fine to quote kitchen, it should be understood that his opinion is very much a minority one and the field has overwhelmingly abandoned the plausibility of the exodus for the reasons we've discussed before.

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A mountain no. But far more than nothing, enough to substantiate it's existence, which is far more than what we have earlier, and unlike earlier, there is nothing explicitly contradicting this. The bible actually makes very specific claims that would leave very big footprints. If we abandon literal text, the footprints can grow smaller.

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1) So I guess we somewhat agree there is not much physical evidence in 1000 BC (No mountain but also no contradictions)

2) Other than 600K men in Exodus, which we have discussed, Question- what are the big footprints you speak of? What are the contradictions? Note: I don't think that number of 600K men during exodus adds up if you work from starting point of Israel (Jacob)- 12 tribes going into Egypt and sticking around for 250-400 years.

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As I stated previous, the entire origin story is what is false, not the early kingdom and captivity. The jews were never Egyptian slaves in huge (or any significant number). They were never outsiders who brutally conquered canaan. They were canaanite, and evolved out of that culture as a distinct group. Generally speaking, from a literal sense the bible is flat out false through joshua, and highly exaggerated until about 1 Samuel.

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1) Why do you say the origin story is false? Based on what evidence? Why do you say never? Where is your smoking gun? Is it no pig bones? Egypt not talking about slaves, or a military defeat? Note the OT smoking gun is the Merneptah Stele places the Jews at same time and place the bible places them -that gets us to about 1200BC.

2) Disagee with "Brutally Conquered Canann" .It is not a dominant take over but a constant struggle, battles, intermarriage, idol worship and struggles with the other tribes all the way from Joshua Judges, Samuel, Kings- through Saul (250-300 years?). Also mixed bag on the battles, they won some, lost, walked into other section of the promised land with no battles (hornets driving out their enemies). No religious symbols the Jews used to distinquish themselves example- no Christian crosses. In short they are just fighting for survival.

3) Question- if it was a myth- why say you come from slaves? If I am making up history, why say this? Answer- because it was probably true.

4) Thanks for giving some credit to the historical accuracy of OT at least up to King David. What I find interesting is you give credit on OT being somewhat accurate up until the point and then once there is lacking historical evidence/details and then you jump to it is false/myth. Seems if they are accurate for 1000 years they might be accurate for at least another 250-300 years?

That being said, there are multiple books of the OT, these books are group together (tell the continous story) but also stand on their own. Each have unique styles, authors and audiences. Example: the book of Judith (in Catholic Bible) is pretty crazy and over the top, not at all historically accurate.

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It's not just missing evidence. As has been stated frustratingly many times there is very good evidence that the events in the exodus and Joshua did not happen. Evidence strong enough that you've had to acquiesce the books are at best a major exaggeration. And you should also note, that while fine to quote kitchen, it should be understood that his opinion is very much a minority one and the field has overwhelmingly abandoned the plausibility of the exodus for the reasons we've discussed before

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. please send me the good evidence. Agreed Kitchen is not the only opinion, lots of opinions, speculation out there, because we are lacking hard evidence. This will change once we uncover something concrete.

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1) So I guess we somewhat agree there is not much physical evidence in 1000 BC (No mountain but also no contradictions)

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sure.

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2) Other than 600K men in Exodus, which we have discussed, Question- what are the big footprints you speak of? What are the contradictions? Note: I don't think that number of 600K men during exodus adds up if you work from starting point of Israel (Jacob)- 12 tribes going into Egypt and sticking around for 250-400 years.

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This has been discussed at length in many other threads. Threads you participated in and then abandon. I see no reason to waste my time restating them, simply use the search function. In fact it was just the other day I gave you the clear example of how they had no Egyptian culture and why this doesn't make sense even with a small number of captives. To which you and kitchens have no credible response. Stop pretending you haven't been told time and again. It's really tiresome. If your memory is truly that bad go back and read. But in short there are clear anachronisms, complete lack of evidence where it should be expected at locations that have been clearly identified and heavily excavated, and a total absence of adoption of Egyptian culture. A hebrew culture that is completely Canaanite.

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. please send me the good evidence. Agreed Kitchen is not the only opinion, lots of opinions, speculation out there, because we are lacking hard evidence. This will change once we uncover something concrete.

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I've already done this. In fact I very specifically remember giving you book recommendations where you can learn what the overwhelming majority of the scholars in the field know. One of the more common criticisms of kitchens other than his rather desperate reasoning at times to force the credibility of the biblical narrative is to pretend we've found much less than we've had and to basically make no commentary on our more modern archaeological discoveries and findings. To say he's not the only opinion is a vast understatement, it's closer to true to say his views will more or less die with him.

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I gave you the clear example of how they had no Egyptian culture and why this doesn't make sense even with a small number of captives. To which you and kitchens have no credible response.

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Sorry, did not know I was respond to that point. I thought that was interesting point but lacking, not a " big footprint or smoking gun" " clear evidence", similar to finding pig bones for the following reasons:

• What would we expect to see? When there was Not a huge immediate transition. Archaelogy is looking for change. This was a mixed bag of results over 250-300 years. Jews trying to leave their old past behind (Egypt), follow new rules/laws, but also embracing their canannite neighbors cultures. We also know Egypt was in the region, fighting and raiding (would this not leave some evidence behind?).

• Kitchen point on Archaeology that limits its blinkered evidence soley to what comes out of modest holes dug in the ground can have no final say in the matter. I agree with this, not that Archaeology is wrong but takes a very limited sample size.

Question- Why if the Jews are making up their history/myth do they say they came from slaves?

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Stop pretending you haven't been told time and again. It's really tiresome. If your memory is truly that bad go back and read. But in short there are clear anachronisms, complete lack of evidence where it should be expected at locations that have been clearly identified and heavily excavated, and a total absence of adoption of Egyptian culture. A hebrew culture that is completely Canaanite.

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Aggrad, I have been told many times by you the Exodus NEVER Happened and yet I see little to no firm hard evidence from you to back this up. I see lots of speculation, opinions. My guy (Kitchen) is not creditable but your many experts are right (Maybe they are?). My point on this, the EVIDENCE is far from conclusive.

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I've already done this. In fact I very specifically remember giving you book recommendations where you can learn what the overwhelming majority of the scholars in the field know. One of the more common criticisms of kitchens other than his rather desperate reasoning at times to force the credibility of the biblical narrative is to pretend we've found much less than we've had and to basically make no commentary on our more modern archaeological discoveries and findings. To say he's not the only opinion is a vast understatement, it's closer to true to say his views will more or less die with him.

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Meh, that maybe true, Kitchen could be totally wrong that is until they uncover something solid like "Merneptah Stele" is found and the goal posts (debate points) will be moved further back in time. Not difficult to look at history and see folks/naysayers saying King David was Myth.

At least we agree OT Bible is relatively accurate up to roughly 1200BC with Jews in Canaan.

Much of the evidence is conclusive booboo. You simply refuse to read and learn. You desperately cling to one guy rather than the whole field. One guy who cannot even address the reasons his views are abandoned.

You are operating under the ignorant notion that it's merely absence of evidence because you lack curiosity to even read and learn. It's not just that things are missing and we haven't found much.

It's that there is direct evidence against. Clear anachronisms. We've found many of the cities in question. They've been well excavated. The "we just haven't found it yet" argument doesn't hold up. A complete absence of Egyptian culture is.a smoking gun. Just as a complete lack of American culture would be unimaginable for African slaves in the US after 400 years.

Read someone who isn't kitchens and learn why your entire argument doesn't hold up.

All the evidence is never in, but we've more than enough to discredit the exodus and as such the entire field has abandoned the view that it's historical.

Read.

Aggrad08 said:

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Much of the evidence is conclusive booboo. You simply refuse to read and learn. You desperately cling to one guy rather than the whole field. One guy who cannot even address the reasons his views are abandoned.

You are operating under the ignorant notion that it's merely absence of evidence because you lack curiosity to even read and learn. It's not just that things are missing and we haven't found much.

It's that there is direct evidence against. Clear anachronisms. We've found many of the cities in question. They've been well excavated. The "we just haven't found it yet" argument doesn't hold up. A complete absence of Egyptian culture is.a smoking gun. Just as a complete lack of American culture would be unimaginable for African slaves in the US after 400 years.

Read someone who isn't kitchens and learn why your entire argument doesn't hold up.

All the evidence is never in, but we've more than enough to discredit the exodus and as such the entire field has abandoned the view that it's historical.

Read.

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1) Ok I will read further.

2) if lack of Egyptian culture in Canaan is " the smoking gun" think you need to change your hard stance from Exodus "NEVER" happened to Maybe.

3) Question- Why did the Jews make up the myth that they were slaves? If it is as you say, why were they slaves?

Agree. It makes no sense for the Jews just to make up probably the most important event in their history. And why pick Egypt? Or being slaves?

dermdoc said:

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Agree. It makes no sense for the Jews just to make up probably the most important event in their history. And why pick Egypt? Or being slaves?

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The Hebrews seem like they were obsessed with separating themselves from the other Canaanites. So it seems like they created an origin story in which they were physically completely separated. Egypt was a logical place for this myth to grow. It was a regional power, the Canaanites had trade ties and fought wars against Egypt, and the Egyptians did have some slaves. It's possible some Hebrews who were slaves escaped from Egypt and maybe a story grew from there.

So they made up the origins of Passover also? Who would think up that story? You have to really want the Exodus not to be true to completely dismiss it.

dermdoc said:

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So they made up the origins of Passover also? Who would think up that story? You have to really want the Exodus not to be true to completely dismiss it.

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There's no evidence. Sorry, but until you can point to something more than a narrative written centuries after the fact, there's no evidence that it happened. Myths evolve over time; there's no reason to think the Exodus story existed in one version for all time.

Dr. Watson said:

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There's no evidence. Sorry, but until you can point to something more than a narrative written centuries after the fact, there's no evidence that it happened. Myths evolve over time; there's no reason to think the Exodus story existed in one version for all time.

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This is where I disagree a bit for following reasons:

1) The Jews get some credit for being correct on telling their relative accurately history from 0- 1200BC. This is the narrative written centuries later you are speaking of. There was also oral tradition. Also the last firm evidence (time date stamp) we have places the Jews right where the bible places them- in Canaan.

We just need to go back another 100-300 years. Half joking- I am waiting for some artifact on Joseph of OT and a great famine to be uncovered.

2) I listen to Dan Carlin Hardcore History (based on recommendations from this group). It is good, entertaining podcast. A point Dan makes, is where the evidence ends, you need to somewhat follow the narrative, because that is all we have.

3) Final point, I much perfer hard physical evidence instead of expert opinions. Having lived nearly 50 years, see the experts wrong many times: It is over all the polls expert say= Hillary Wins!, Gloom & Doom from Al Gore, Foods that are good and bad for us, change in medical advise (back in the day, lets bleed people) ect....

the truth is people take the data they have and make a educated guess and then when they get more updated data, they change adjust their opinion. .

booboo91 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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There's no evidence. Sorry, but until you can point to something more than a narrative written centuries after the fact, there's no evidence that it happened. Myths evolve over time; there's no reason to think the Exodus story existed in one version for all time.

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This is where I disagree a bit for following reasons:

1) The Jews get some credit for being correct on telling their relative accurately history from 0- 1200BC. This is the narrative written centuries later you are speaking of. There was also oral tradition. Also the last firm evidence (time date stamp) we have places the Jews right where the bible places them- in Canaan.

What did they get right?

We just need to go back another 100-300 years. Half joking- I am waiting for some artifact on Joseph of OT and a great famine to be uncovered.

2) I listen to Dan Carlin Hardcore History (based on recommendations from this group). It is good, entertaining podcast. A point Dan makes, is where the evidence ends, you need to somewhat follow the narrative, because that is all we have.

Dan is entertaining. He is not an historian. We don't follow the narrative without good reason and even when the narrative appears to be based in reality, it isn't accepted as accurate, just useful.

3) Final point, I much perfer hard physical evidence instead of expert opinions. Having lived nearly 50 years, see the experts wrong many times: It is over all the polls expert say= Hillary Wins!, Gloom & Doom from Al Gore, Foods that are good and bad for us, change in medical advise (back in the day, lets bleed people) ect....
Anthropogenic climate change is real. The polls in the election weren't really off. And large groups of humans moving long distances over time leave traces. There's no evidence of the Exodus. At some point, absence of evidence is actually evidence of absence.
the truth is people take the data they have and make a educated guess and then when they get more updated data, they change adjust their opinion. .

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Dr. Watson said:

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booboo91 said:

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What did they get right?

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Working backwards from Jesus (NT).. They got the "basic broad brush" history right: The Book of Maccabees comments on Greeks (150BC), through Persians (550BC), Babylonians (600BC), Assyrians (740BC), King David/ King Solomon (1000BC), Tribes in Canaan (1200BC). We agree this is somewhat accurate. Because there is real evidence. Real time date stamps. OT is not even close to the book of Mormon.

Dispute is over Moses/Exodus (1250-1500BC), Abraham (2000 BC), Ancient Times: Noah/Flood (interesting tidbit, pretty much all cultures from across the globe aknowledge an epic flood.), Adam and Eve.

The OT is great because it is independent collection of books but they are tied together telling story from Adam all the way to Jesus.

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Dan is entertaining. He is not an historian. We don't follow the narrative without good reason and even when the narrative appears to be based in reality, it isn't accepted as accurate, just useful.

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Agreed Dan is not an historian. His point was when all we have is the narrative (that is it) you need to follow what you have. Note: when new evidence is introduced follow it.

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Anthropogenic climate change is real. The polls in the election weren't really off. And large groups of humans moving long distances over time leave traces. There's no evidence of the Exodus. At some point, absence of evidence is actually evidence of absence.

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• My point is the so called experts are wrong, and then when they are wrong, they modify and change what they say, with the new data point. Firm facts are better. And did you not watch what folks were saying before the election?
• I would agree with you on absence of evidence if we had evidence. If we had gone through lots of hay and still not found the needle. Historical details really drop offf after the Greeks in 300BC (who liked to document things). For comparision purposes what is the evidence of King David in 1000BC?

• Moving the goal posts on my part. I don't believe it was 600K jewish males wandering the desert- Think it was smaller.

booboo91 said:

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my main objection is against the claims "ALL" the evidence is in and things did not happen. The insinuation is the OT is complete fabrication and made up. When that is not true. The main truth is the farther and farther you go back in time, the evidence is much very rare.

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I don't know that many people claim that the Exodus is "complete fabrication." MOST myths have some small grain of truth at their root, if you look hard enough.

Did many thousands of Hebrews escape from Egypt by parting the Red Sea? Of course not. But it is entirely possible that a small number of Hebrews (or proto-Hebrews) resided or were enslaved in Egypt, left or escaped and joined their ethnic brethren in Canaan. And it is entirely possible that their adventures grew into the story of the Exodus.

AggieHank86 said:

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I don't know that many people claim that the Exodus is "complete fabrication." MOST myths have some small grain of truth at their root, if you look hard enough.

Did many thousands of Hebrews escape from Egypt by parting the Red Sea? Of course not. But it is entirely possible that a small number of Hebrews (or proto-Hebrews) resided or were enslaved in Egypt, left or escaped and joined their ethnic brethren in Canaan. And it is entirely possible that their adventures grew into the story of the Exodus.

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1) Or instead of saying it is a myth with some truth in it, we can say we have real history (real events) that are used to tell the Jewish story, from their perspective. The authors take some liberty with details as they do in the NT, example: things are Not always written in chronlogical order, numbers have symbolic meaning, family trees and OT verses are used to make connections. We also have issue of names, details, terrain changing from 3500 years ago.

2) We are in agreement, I think it is very plausible that Jews were infact slaves, did leave egypt and go to the promise land- Caanan. Egypt was the power at the time, Egypt did have slaves. The distances between Egypt and Promise Land are not that great- 250 miles?

AggieHank86 said:

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Did many thousands of Hebrews escape from Egypt by parting the Red Sea? Of course not.

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The bible really is awesome with the details it provides. Did you know this about Jews crossing red sea? It is not that crazy, but very plausible. The key is timing!

A strong east wind blew all night. Why is this little detail in there? Engineers have run calculations and determined that a 35-40mph wind would create a land bridge. The jews walk across the temporary land bridge they do not get stuck in the mud like the heavier charriots. The next morning wind stops, water returns to its normal location.


Exodus 14 21Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD drove back the sea with a strong east wind all night long and turned the sea into dry ground. The waters were split,22so that the Israelites entered into the midst of the sea on dry land, with the water as a wall to their right and to their left.

Rout of the Egyptians.23The Egyptians followed in pursuit after themall Pharaoh's horses and chariots and horsemeninto the midst of the sea.24But during the watch just before dawn, the LORD looked down from a column of fiery cloud upon the Egyptian army and threw it into a panic;25and he so clogged their chariot wheels that they could drive only with difficulty. With that the Egyptians said, "Let us flee from Israel, because the LORD is fighting for them against Egypt."26Then the LORD spoke to Moses: Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the water may flow back upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots and their horsemen.27So Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and at daybreak the sea returned to its normal flow. The Egyptians were fleeing head on toward it when the LORD cast the Egyptians into the midst of the sea.28As the water flowed back, it covered the chariots and the horsemen. Of all Pharaoh's army which had followed the Israelites into the sea, not even one escaped.

The key to all of this is understanding all of this in the OT and NT is first understanding step 1- There is a God. God exists. Once you understand God is there, then all of this is plausible. If you fail to recognize God, then this will always be nonsense/rubbish.

Step 1 God Exists, Psalm 19: 2-3 The heavens declare the glory of God; the firmament proclaims the works of his hands.Day unto day pours forth speech; night unto night whispers knowledge.

Step 2: God calls you to Love Detr 30 10-14 Moses said to the people:"If only you would heed the voice of the LORD, your God,and keep his commandments and statutes that are written in this book of the law, when you return to the LORD, your God, with all your heart and all your soul.

"For this command that I enjoin on you today is not too mysterious and remote for you.It is not up in the sky, that you should say,'Who will go up in the sky to get it for usand tell us of it, that we may carry it out?'Nor is it across the sea, that you should say,'Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?'No, it is something very near to you, already in your mouths and in your hearts;you have only to carry it out." Comment- similar to Paul's verse Romans 2 13-15 the gentiles have the law written in their hearts.

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There did exist around 1200 BC a distinct culture of people that lived outside of the major Cannanite settlements. There are some good records that the Egyptians basically conquered and ruled the area for a while, and then got kicked out.

The story of Exodus is the story of Israel coming out from slavery from Egypt. It's fair to say that there is no good evidence of a mass Exodus from the heart of Egypt to Israel, but there does seem to be a period of social unrest where nomadic tribes struggled against Egyptian overlords.

Records from back then are spotty, so I don't rule out some sort of revolt in Egypt proper. But, ruling out the struggle between Egypt and Israel as complete myth doesn't seem to be a very balanced view either.