Catholic and Orthodox on Oroginal sin? What's the difference?

1,630 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Furlock Bones
Captain Pablo
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What is the difference between their views?

It appears both see it as hereditary, neither view man as "guilty" by way of Adam's acts, both view it as a "state" or "nature" contracted by Adam's act (rather than guilt), neither view it as total depravity

It's my understanding that Roman Catholics see very little difference between them and the Orthodox on this, but the Orthodox see see a difference

What is the difference?
Zobel
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The difference is the orthodox have no doctrine of original sin.
Captain Pablo
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k2aggie07 said:

The difference is the orthodox have no doctrine of original sin.


Oh cmon

It's not that simple and you know it

They do believe in ancestral sin, and that it was passed down.... not as guilt, but as fallen nature

It is my understanding that Roman Catholicism also does not believe that man bears the guilt of Ancestral sin. Only his Fallen nature (admittedly, I have read conflicting information on the Roman Catholic view of Original Sin, and whether that includes guilt on the part of Adam's descendants)

So is the difference semantics?
Zobel
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No, I was not being glib. The Roman doctrine of original sin comes from St Augustine. He said it was hereditary and theorized it passed through the man's seed. There is no matching idea in the East.

You have to understand the context in which the notion really became fleshed out. St Augustine was correcting Pelagius' wrong teaching that each man was born into innocence (like Adam) and was capable of achieving salvation on his own - through the Law, potentially. Part of this was, I believe, Pelagius' own desire to show just how terrible humanity really is: after all, if you can be good but aren't, isn't that worse than if you can't?

St Augustine disagreed -- with good reason. While he complimented Pelagius' austere way of life and serious monasticism and no doubt agreed that there was a need for continued moral growth in the faithful, he saw that there was a spiritual danger in the teaching. Namely, that Christianity was not merely a system of moral living that led to salvation. He wrote to guard the faithful against these errors. St Augustine was enlightened, and was not writing based on pure logic or philosophy but out of his own experience with God -- because he knew that the Pelagians were not writing from the same experience. However, at the end of the day St Augustine was separated from the theological inheritance of the Fathers by geography and language, and some of the ways he expressed these truths were not in line with patristic tradition in the East.

This is why St Photius calls him blessed and says subsequent people in the West overstate and misuse his writings. St. Gregory of Nyssa says that we should not "insert our errors of speech" into "theological doctrine." In other words, he was aware that there exists the danger of expressing something wrongly and its being taken as doctrine. We should be careful with confusing St. Augustine's "errors in speech" with "errors in doctrine" or an absence of pious and enlightening experience of the Mysteries of God.


Anyway, the how of St Augustine's correction were basically that there are two aspects: vitium and reatus. Vitium is the inherited moral deficiency, the corrupted will by which post-lapsarian man can choose only sin, and can choose no good. Reatus is the inherited legal liability, that Adam condemned mankind along with himself.

The big discussion, then, is really about two things: do we have a truly free will? Can we choose good? And, second, are we heirs to Adam's guilt along with the consequences of it (death, fallen world, so on)?

The East doesn't really agree with either aspect of St Augustine's teaching, and certainly rejects the centuries of building on these ideas that subsequent Western theologians did.

Captain Pablo
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Hmmmm...

So you are saying the Orthidox Chirch does not separate out the inheritance of Adam's guilt and its consequences?

I was under the impression the Orthodox did separate these, and that was the whole point --- that we may not bear guilt, but we are left with the consequences, we are left in a "state" of unholiness due to Adam's guilt





Zobel
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No, that is not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that we don't agree completely with the way St Augustine expressed the fall, and we also don't believe that we a heirs to some kind of legal liability with God. Our understanding of the will, sin, and the means of salvation are different.

The whole debate is between two people (Pelagius and St Augustine) who do not share the same theological and philosophical framework with the East.

Humans are not unholy, they were made in the image and likeness of God.

St John Cassian's writings on the subject of free will and sin are a good starting point.
Captain Pablo
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So we're not guilty of Adam's sin.

What consequences does humanity bear due to Adam's guilt?
Zobel
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Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Captain Pablo
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k2aggie07 said:

Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.


That's what I anticipated

thanks a bunch for the conversation.

If you have no objections, I might drop you a PM or two in the future

Thanks again
Zobel
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dds08
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I suspect Adam sinned partially to be in the same hole Eve dug for herself.

Again I dunno how Eve being the first woman, and best judge of the unseen, character, didn't see through the snake and all his craptastic lies.

Women are supposed to be better judges of the unseen, the unsaid, the unspoken qualities in things/people.

This was a complete utter, and total miscarriage of judgement and discernment; the snake took advantage of them both, Adam and Eve.

MidTnAg
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k2aggie07 said:

No, I was not being glib. The Roman doctrine of original sin comes from St Augustine. He said it was hereditary and theorized it passed through the man's seed. There is no matching idea in the East.
You have got to be kidding. Some guy several hundred years ago surmised that sin was hereditary and passed thru sperm. Does anyone actually believe that sins are transmitted from a male to his children?

Who believes this nonsense?
Zobel
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You're really quick to denigrate Christianity, yet you seem to be completely unfamiliar with many aspects of it.

Captain Pablo
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MidTnAg said:

k2aggie07 said:

No, I was not being glib. The Roman doctrine of original sin comes from St Augustine. He said it was hereditary and theorized it passed through the man's seed. There is no matching idea in the East.
You have got to be kidding. Some guy several hundred years ago surmised that sin was hereditary and passed thru sperm. Does anyone actually believe that sins are transmitted from a male to his children?

Who believes this nonsense?


Go pollute somewhere else
Zobel
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Also, if you want to have a serious discussing about what he thought and why, we can. I think you'll find the St Augustine was one of the worlds great minds, and that his thoughts are well worth reading.

"some guy". Hah.
MidTnAg
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k2aggie07 said:

Also, if you want to have a serious discussing about what he thought and why, we can. I think you'll find the St Augustine was one of the worlds great minds, and that his thoughts are well worth reading.

"some guy". Hah.
So, since he was one of the world's greatest minds, you actually believe him when he claimed that a male transmits his sins via his sperm to all of his children?

Just because a person has such a great reputation, does not mean that everything he claims is accurate.

Do you really believe that males transmits their sins to their children? WOW!
Zobel
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I'm starting to question not only your willingness to have an agreeable conversation but your ability to do so.

What part of anything that I wrote on this thread caused you to come to the conclusion that I agree with St Augustine on this subject?
MidTnAg
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k2aggie07 said:

You're really quick to denigrate Christianity, yet you seem to be completely unfamiliar with many aspects of it.
This has nothing to do with Christianity. I did not say anything pro or con about Christianity. I am NOT talking about any religion. I am talking about biology. You're playing the religious card, not me.

I assert that a male does not transmit any of their their sins to their offspring.
MidTnAg
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k2aggie07 said:

I'm starting to question not only your willingness to have an agreeable conversation but your ability to do so.

What part of anything that I wrote on this thread caused you to come to the conclusion that I agree with St Augustine on this subject?
I am just asking a simple question.

Do you believe that males transmits their sins to their children? I don't. I am surprised that anyone would believe this.
Zobel
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I have made it clear on this thread that I do not agree with St Augustine.

However, there is room for a vast amount of nuance here. What does the word sin mean to you? Does it mean death? Because they're nearly synonymous in many flavors of Christian theology.

Does a man transmit life to his offspring through procreation? And does he transmit death?
Captain Pablo
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MidTnAg said:

k2aggie07 said:

I'm starting to question not only your willingness to have an agreeable conversation but your ability to do so.

What part of anything that I wrote on this thread caused you to come to the conclusion that I agree with St Augustine on this subject?
I am just asking a simple question.

Do you believe that males transmits their sins to their children? I don't. I am surprised that anyone would believe this.



Can you ****ing read?

K2 is orthodox

He stated his position on original sin

He also made it very well-known that Saint Augustine was not in his camp

How can you not figure out that his position is contrary to St. Augustine?

But please do carry-on with your bumbling attempts to play gotcha with yourself
AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

Also, if you want to have a serious discussing about what he thought and why, we can. I think you'll find the St Augustine was one of the worlds great minds, and that his thoughts are well worth reading.

"some guy". Hah.

I'm beginning to think that the shift away from reading the Church Fathers was one of the great tragedies of the Protestant Reformation.

Whether you agree/disagree with any specific individual or idea, their insights at the time provide a great road map for why all of Christianity is what it is today (even most Protestants whether they realize it or not).



Zobel
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Yes, I agree. Baby with the bathwater and all that.

But, it's hard to quote the Fathers when by doing so you either have to have a lot of cognitive dissonance or heavily redact / selectively edit...
MidTnAg
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Let me put it this way. I am just asking a simple question. I not asking anything about St Augustine or asking anything about anyone's religion.

All I am asking is --- Does anyone on here believe that a male transmits his sins to his offspring?
As a medical professional, I find it very peculiar that anyone would believe this.

Sorry if I have offended anyone.
Zobel
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Why does it matter since you may not attach any real meaning to the word sin?

Answer my questions, please.

What does the word sin mean to you? Does it mean death? Because they're nearly synonymous in many flavors of Christian theology.

Does a man transmit life to his offspring through procreation? And does he transmit death?
Furlock Bones
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AgLiving06 said:

k2aggie07 said:

Also, if you want to have a serious discussing about what he thought and why, we can. I think you'll find the St Augustine was one of the worlds great minds, and that his thoughts are well worth reading.

"some guy". Hah.

I'm beginning to think that the shift away from reading the Church Fathers was one of the great tragedies of the Protestant Reformation.

Whether you agree/disagree with any specific individual or idea, their insights at the time provide a great road map for why all of Christianity is what it is today (even most Protestants whether they realize it or not).






Indeed. I grew up Methodist though not very closely and basically left the faith in middle school.

My wife is Catholic and I was confirmed into the church this past year. K2 was a wealth of knowledge for me. If my wife wasn't RCC, I would have pursued the OCC.

The disagreements between the RCC and OCC are minimal enough for me. (But that's one mans opinion).

Most importantly as it pertains to your statement K2s quoting of the church fathers was huge for me.

I chose St Justin the Martyr as my confirmation saint he wrote about Mass in its earliest forms and guess what the OCC and the RCC still follow it.
That is some of the tradition that the Protestant reformation decided to dump 1500 years after the fact.
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