Is monogamy an evolutionary benefit?

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Martin Q. Blank
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Does evolution want us to stay with one partner for life or is this a practice left over from archaic tradition/religion? If your partner wanted to sleep around, would you object? Asking for a friend.

Yes, I know Solomon and many others in the Bible had multiple wives. Not a debate on what the Bible teaches.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

Does evolution want us to stay with one partner for life or is this a practice left over from archaic tradition/religion? If your partner wanted to sleep around, would you object? Asking for a friend.

Yes, I know Solomon and many others in the Bible had multiple wives. Not a debate on what the Bible teaches.

I think it depends on the species we are talking about. I don't know that there is any benefit to monogamy with fish. But, I think the benefits of monogamy are more clear with certain mammals - particularly mammals with slowly developing babies that need additional community / protection (like humans). In those cases, I think the benefit is less to do with an inherent moral goodness in monogamy and more to do with the benefit that comes with males having some instinct toward paternity rather than eating their young or their 'competitor's' young.

Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

I think it depends on the species we are talking about.
Humans
dds08
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AG
First of all, sex outside of marriage is sinful. I am against fornication and adultery.

The opportunity cost of this action is a happy and well pleased Father/Spirit/Son.

Secondly, it's a free country so not everyone has faith.

The STI/STD argument alone is reason enough to argue in favor of monogamy.

How cumbersome would it be to get a blood test on someone before you had sex with them? Who would be gullible/reckless enough to take someone's word that they are clean (STI/STD free), assuming no condoms? Then the risk of have a child is there along with abortion. Not to mention the emotional fallout.




Star Wars Memes Only
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Evolution doesn't want anything, but there are probably competing selection forces drawing us in both directions.
Martin Q. Blank
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dargscisyhp said:

Evolution doesn't want anything, but there are probably competing selection forces drawing us in both directions.
Like Luke I am your father force or some evolutionary benefit?
Star Wars Memes Only
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I think Rey is the reincarnation of Anakin. At some point she's going to ask Luke if he is her father at which point Luke will reply, "no, you are my father." It's going to be cheesy and awesome at the same time.
NonReg85
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AG
dargscisyhp said:

I think Rey is the reincarnation of Anakin. At some point she's going to ask Luke if he is her father at which point Luke will reply, "no, you are my father." It's going to be cheesy and awesome at the same time.
If I had any photoshop skills at all; I would now post a picture of Fonzi jumping the shark while wearing Darth Vader's helmet.
BrazosDog02
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I figure if I was cheated on I would certainly ly end the life of at least ONE person or make a serious effort at it. I am also certain that my wife would end me if I did the same. Since both scenarios contradict the ability to continue living I'd say, yes, monogamy is a benefit to evolution and survival f the species. L
Sapper Redux
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Martin Q. Blank said:

dargscisyhp said:

Evolution doesn't want anything, but there are probably competing selection forces drawing us in both directions.
Like Luke I am your father force or some evolutionary benefit?


Yes, the goal of evolution is to bring balance to the force. Which it had achieved 66 million years ago until that ****ing asteroid ruined everything.
DirtDiver
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I would argue that if there is no God, and evolution is true then monogamy is foolish. "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" would be the anthem of all mankind. I have to credit something other then 'evolution' to explain why anyone would value monogamy, faithfulness, and experience jealousy, guilt, and shame at unfaithfulness.
Sapper Redux
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DirtDiver said:

I would argue that if there is no God, and evolution is true then monogamy is foolish. "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" would be the anthem of all mankind. I have to credit something other then 'evolution' to explain why anyone would value monogamy, faithfulness, and experience jealousy, guilt, and shame at unfaithfulness.


Why do religious people always think life would be chaos without their religion? People are not the unrelenting hedonists that Calvinists make them out to be. Nor are they as selfish and cruel as people assume. There are a lot of bad, irresponsible people, absolutely, but they existed and still exist comfortably in the confines of religious belief.

Humans are social animals that tend towards some variant of hierarchical society. Evolution in our species has rewarded greater cooperation and traits like empathy that have cemented close bonds within groups defined in a variety of ways according to the environment and the culture that develops in that environment.
Star Wars Memes Only
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DirtDiver said:

I would argue that if there is no God, and evolution is true then monogamy is foolish. "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" would be the anthem of all mankind. I have to credit something other then 'evolution' to explain why anyone would value monogamy, faithfulness, and experience jealousy, guilt, and shame at unfaithfulness.


Their are selective benefits to monogamy, though. For instance, giving birth to a child is an enormous investment for a woman. Finding a mate that gives attention to her and her offspring exclusively gave her offspring a better chance to survive. This type of reasoning suggests that there are selective benefits to monogamy. Would you agree with this much?
Martin Q. Blank
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dargscisyhp said:

DirtDiver said:

I would argue that if there is no God, and evolution is true then monogamy is foolish. "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" would be the anthem of all mankind. I have to credit something other then 'evolution' to explain why anyone would value monogamy, faithfulness, and experience jealousy, guilt, and shame at unfaithfulness.
Their are selective benefits to monogamy, though. For instance, giving birth to a child is an enormous investment for a woman. Finding a mate that gives attention to her and her offspring exclusively gave her offspring a better chance to survive. This type of reasoning suggests that there are selective benefits to monogamy. Would you agree with this much?
So we as a species should encourage monogamy (at least when a child is involved).
Star Wars Memes Only
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Evolutionary selection pressures should never be the ultimate basis of our norms and mores. However, based on my cultural upbringing I generally agree with that sentiment.
Sapper Redux
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dargscisyhp said:

DirtDiver said:

I would argue that if there is no God, and evolution is true then monogamy is foolish. "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" would be the anthem of all mankind. I have to credit something other then 'evolution' to explain why anyone would value monogamy, faithfulness, and experience jealousy, guilt, and shame at unfaithfulness.


Their are selective benefits to monogamy, though. For instance, giving birth to a child is an enormous investment for a woman. Finding a mate that gives attention to her and her offspring exclusively gave her offspring a better chance to survive. This type of reasoning suggests that there are selective benefits to monogamy. Would you agree with this much?


I agree but not necessarily monogamy as practiced in our nuclear family society. But there are examples of human societies, typically nomadic or semi-nomadic, that engage in truly communal child rearing where the mother is not relying solely or even primarily on a mate.
NonReg85
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AG
Hasn't our nuclear family model proven more successful than communal child rearing practiced by nomadic/semi-nomadic cultures? If not, why aren't people flocking to that lifestyle?
Martin Q. Blank
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dargscisyhp said:

Evolutionary selection pressures should never be the ultimate basis of our norms and mores. However, based on my cultural upbringing I generally agree with that sentiment.
What should be the ultimate basis of our norms or mores? Cultural upbringing? We do it this way because we've always done it that way?
Star Wars Memes Only
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Martin Q. Blank said:

[What should be the ultimate basis of our norms or mores?


Bringing balance to the force.
Martin Q. Blank
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NonReg85 said:

Hasn't our nuclear family model proven more successful than communal child rearing practiced by nomadic/semi-nomadic cultures? If not, why aren't people flocking to that lifestyle?
Certain communities have. Like urban black populations.
Sapper Redux
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NonReg85 said:

Hasn't our nuclear family model proven more successful than communal child rearing practiced by nomadic/semi-nomadic cultures? If not, why aren't people flocking to that lifestyle?


Define success? I think that's debatable. As for why people aren't changing, it's culture and ingrained social structures. The devil you know is better than the new. It's also true that the mobility and flexibility of small immediate family-based units woks better with capitalism and urbanism.
Martin Q. Blank
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Dr. Watson said:

As for why people aren't changing, it's culture and ingrained social structures. The devil you know is better than the new.
Why did people change en masse to the nuclear family model after WWII?
DirtDiver
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Quote:

Why do religious people always think life would be chaos without their religion? People are not the unrelenting hedonists that Calvinists make them out to be. Nor are they as selfish and cruel as people assume. There are a lot of bad, irresponsible people, absolutely, but they existed and still exist comfortably in the confines of religious belief.

Humans are social animals that tend towards some variant of hierarchical society. Evolution in our species has rewarded greater cooperation and traits like empathy that have cemented close bonds within groups defined in a variety of ways according to the environment and the culture that develops in that environment

If God doesn't exist and Jesus didn't rise from the dead then Christians should be the most pitiful creatures on the planet, for believing in Him and following His teachings. My argument is not that the world would go to chaos it's that it should.
  • If there's no resurrection and judgement why be faithful to a spouse?
  • If there's no resurrection and judgement why care about the future survival of the human race if it's one and done?
  • A wise approach would be live life for every pleasure possible.

I think a good argument for God is that our experience of life tells us the following:
  • sex if fun but outside of the confines of a committed marriage it causes a ton of suffering for children, single spouses, health, all having nothing to do with survival
  • when people are not monogamous they are not contemplating the survival of the species but doing everything to avoid the responsibility via abortion, protection, judgements to not pay child support, etc.


Quote:

Their are selective benefits to monogamy, though. For instance, giving birth to a child is an enormous investment for a woman. Finding a mate that gives attention to her and her offspring exclusively gave her offspring a better chance to survive. This type of reasoning suggests that there are selective benefits to monogamy. Would you agree with this much?

I agree that there are many benefits to monogamy however my reasoning is entirely different. I would also point out that a parents committed relationship to each other does so much more for a child than simply survival. Being a child of divorce I remember drastically how life was different when my parent were together vs when they divorced. The physological changes are enormous and has little to nothing to do with survival.

With infertile couples over the world like my wife and I, if life is all about survival and child rearing why do and should we actively pursue a faithful relationship with each other given that we have failed at the ultimate purpose of our existence. Why should we not committ suicide and free up resources for others?

If a person leaves his spouse due to infertility, one would think the world would easily cheer him on for attempting to spread the human gene-pool. However if this scenario was brought up in a room full of women and the unfaithful man walked in, he may have a hard time leaving alive. I think our experience of life, right and wrong, the cause and effect way this universerve is designed, points us to better explanation than evolution. Simply my opinion.
Rusty Aha
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AG
Is the core tenet of evolution mostly natural selection of the fittest, diversity of species, or commiseration?

(TIA.....asking for a YEC friend that is terrified of "science".)
Woody2006
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Monogamy works for some people. It doesn't work for everyone. Evolution doesn't care. Considering humans are the apex animal without being reliant on predation for food, the typical natural selection process no longer applies. Artificial selection is going to be a far bigger determinant of the future of our species.
Martin Q. Blank
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Woody2006 said:

Monogamy works for some people. It doesn't work for everyone. Evolution doesn't care. Considering humans are the apex animal without being reliant on predation for food, the typical natural selection process no longer applies. Artificial selection is going to be a far bigger determinant of the future of our species.
What is artificial selection?
Woody2006
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

Woody2006 said:

Monogamy works for some people. It doesn't work for everyone. Evolution doesn't care. Considering humans are the apex animal without being reliant on predation for food, the typical natural selection process no longer applies. Artificial selection is going to be a far bigger determinant of the future of our species.
What is artificial selection?
http://wallace.genetics.uga.edu/groups/evol3000/wiki/ce8b9/Selective_Breeding_or_Artificial_Selection.html
Quote:

Artificial Selection is a form of selection in which humans actively choose which traits should be passed onto offspring. Humans have used selective breeding long before Darwin's Postulates and the discovery of genetics. Farmers chose cattle with beneficial traits such as larger size or producing more milk, and made them breed; and although they may have known nothing about genes, they knew that the beneficial traits could be heritable. The farmers selected for certain traits in their cattle and probably noticed that the offspring were becoming more and more productive with each generation. Scientists study these traits and spend a lot of time calculating how heritable these traits can be. The more these traits are expressed in the offspring (i.e. size, milk production, etc), the more heritable these traits are said to be. Hunting is also a form of artificial selection, with the genes that humans "want" (i.e. - the biggest buck with the most points, the largest fish, etc.) being removed from the gene pool, allowing the less "wanted" genes to pass on to the next generation by increasing their odds of mating when compared to the hunted specimens.
Basically, selecting for desirable traits rather than having natural forces select for traits that are advantageous for survival or reproduction.

Think of all the different types of dog breeds that have come into existence in just the past 100 years. That speed of divergence would never happen given natural selection alone.
Martin Q. Blank
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Basically, selecting for desirable traits
How do we determine what is desirable? That's my OP.
Duncan Idaho
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For a k reproductive strategy with a multi-year depenantcy stage, it is a definite advantage.

For an R reproductive strategy it don't matter and is probably a net negative.

For a k reproductive strategy with a short (less than one season) depenantcy, probably a wash.
Duncan Idaho
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Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

Basically, selecting for desirable traits
How do we determine what is desirable? That's my OP.
ever force is doing the selecting is what "decides" what is desirable.
Woody2006
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

Basically, selecting for desirable traits
How do we determine what is desirable? That's my OP.
"Desirable" is a subjective descriptor.

Are you looking for an objective answer? Is that at the root of your question?
Martin Q. Blank
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Woody2006 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

Basically, selecting for desirable traits
How do we determine what is desirable? That's my OP.
"Desirable" is a subjective descriptor.

Are you looking for an objective answer? Is that at the root of your question?
Depends on the goal of the "selection."

Farmers select certain traits to yield a better crop. Dog breeders select certain traits to get a better dog for their purposes.

Humans select certain traits to...
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