Discuss.

A coerced will seems to be a contradiction.

I do, in the sense that if it doesn't the illusion is so perfect that it essentially renders the concept moot.

Picture a perfect blue pill world like the Matrix. Sure we could be living in one now but it hardly bothers pondering.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Discuss.

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We already did. The answer was no.

All there is indeed is freedom.

Freedom is absolute.

Free will is more subjective. Depends on the person.

Freedom and free will are related, but different. Kind of like cousins.

I think it's logically impossible with a two O god as rocag said. But I do think it could be possible with a just very powerful and very knowing god(s).

I also don't see much room for more than a compatibalist free will in either deterministic or indeterministic materialism. Granted we have such a poor knowledge of how consciousness works that there may be more room for free will than I can see.

Free will is an illusion. It stems from a deeper illusion of the self; the idea that 'you' are someone pulling the levers inside a body. That is fundamentally false. This is available for anyone to see with a little bit of self inspection. Thoughts are springing up from a source that is ultimately mysterious to you. For example, if I asked you to think of a person in history and you say, for instance JFK, you cannot explain why you did not say FDR or Ghengis Khan. It sprung from a place you cannot control. And this is true for any and all thoughts you have. You are not pulling a lever; there's not even a lever to be seen.

RPag said:

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Free will is an illusion. It stems from a deeper illusion of the self; the idea that 'you' are someone pulling the levers inside a body. That is fundamentally false. This is available for anyone to see with a little bit of self inspection. Thoughts are springing up from a source that is ultimately mysterious to you. For example, if I asked you to think of a person in history and you say, for instance JFK, you cannot explain why you did not say FDR or Ghengis Khan. It sprung from a place you cannot control. And this is true for any and all thoughts you have. You are not pulling a lever; there's not even a lever to be seen.

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Sam Harris?

His book on free will was an incredible read.

Do you mean his podcasts in general? If so, I agree. We get it, Trump is an idiot. Still, his writings and talks on islamism, religion and philosophy are worth reading and listening.

This thread was better when it was on the wrong board

Only the Lord has absolute freedom.

We have free will, however it depends on the Lord.

Everyone has free will, however the free will isn't worth pursuing apart from God because all there is left is Satan and he wants you to believe you can do life without the Father, Spirit, and Son.

You can do life and have free will apart from God, however the only alternative is to live for Satan and you will not reach self-actualization; you will do quite the opposite.

The free will that we have isn't realized until one achieves self-actualization.

Once you become the best person you can be, self-actualization, then you can wield free will absolutely. Before you reach self-actualization, you must be united with the Lord. You need the Lord to achieve self-actualization.

If you can find out how to achieve self-actualization and purity on your own go for it. Else just tell the Lord you need Him. Tell him you've messed up and that you're not perfect. Tell him you will do the best you can to go in a direction that He wants you to go.

It's that easy. Let's not make it any harder.

Free will seems to operate in a dimension between Love and Evil. Even Jesus was tempted on earth.

Freedom seems to operate in a dimension of Love exclusively. Satan cannot tempt the Father, Spirit or Son.

No this is not CS Lewis. These are my own thoughts.

Pride is the most ancient sin known! Thinking you can do life without God.

Buddhism's dual nature of the self is pretty interesting. One self is something akin to the ego and id rolled into one and is the source of emotions, addictions, desires, and virtually every thought an unenlightened person has. The real Self is that which allows for reality itself to exist. One could imagine that so long as one is identified as that which you are not, in the Buddhist tradition, then you are a slave to the self. By de-identifying with that self you would reach a state of true free choice.

No.

Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.

hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.

So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.

So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?

Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.

Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?

TexAgs91 said:

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No.

Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.

hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.

So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.

So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?

Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.

Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?

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This makes our justice system completely unjust.

I like Stephen Covey and his 7 habits deal.

Everyone (every being) needs these things:

1. Direction(creativity / right brain / effectiveness) & Self-Management (efficiency / left brain)
2. Knowledge & Wisdom & Skill
3. Power & Strength
4. Safety

The Lord gives all these things and more to every being.

Not everyone consciously thinks about all these things though.

dds08 said:

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I like Stephen Covey and his 7 habits deal.

Everyone needs these things:

1. Direction & Self-Management (Creativity - Right brain - Effectiveness & Efficiency - Left brain)
2. Knowledge & Wisdom & Skill
3. Power & Strength
4. Safety

The Lord gives all these things and more.

Not everyone consciously thinks about all these things though.

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Consider #4, safety.

Who keeps one safe from Satan?

Who keeps one safe from oneself?

Who keeps one safe from the Father, Spirit, Son?

What is absolute safety?

Life is forced on one, a being. Well what if one does not wish to live? Satan is the answer for this. Satan will protect you from life. He will protect you from your best self. He will protect you from the Father, Spirit, and Son. He will give you death and death to the fullest!

The Lord does not force life on a being. He will not force death on a being either. So all there is left is self, Satan and Father/Spirit/Son.

You can live life as if Satan does not exist but nothing is further from the truth. One would be making a big mistake.

Woody2006 said:

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RPag said:

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His book on free will was an incredible read.

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The longer I've paid attention to him the less interesting I've found him.

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I agree. He has interesting conversations sometimes, but I don't think he is a particularly nuanced thinker. I still listen to his podcast, but it's not what it was.

It's good for him to get people interested in aspects of philosophy, but a lot of his fans seems to stop there. I'd encourage anyone intrigued by his ideas to continue reading into philosophy.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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No.

Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.

hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.

So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.

So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?

Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.

Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?

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This makes our justice system completely unjust.

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Yes, I forgot this one that also always comes up whenever we have this discussion. (this thread should be a sticky). The consequences of our justice system is also an input to decision making, so it is still a deterrent and it is reasonable to punish someone for violating a law.

Quote:

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I don't think free will is possible in a universe created by an omnipotent and omniscient deity, however I also don't think we live in such a universe.

I don't think free will exists, but we cannot tell whether God controlled an event or not so it's the same as having free will from our perspective. Add in the command that we live like we have free will, and it becomes a moot point.

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FIFY for my view.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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No.

Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.

hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.

So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.

So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?

Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.

Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?

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This makes our justice system completely unjust.

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Yes, I forgot this one that also always comes up whenever we have this discussion. (this thread should be a sticky). The consequences of our justice system is also an input to decision making, so it is still a deterrent and it is reasonable to punish someone for violating a law.

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Why is it reasonable if they didn't have a choice to do the crime?

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If my decision making process tells me it's time to rob a bank, one of the inputs that feeds into the go/nogo decision is that I'll probably be caught and have to spend the next 20 years in jail. That's a deterrent and in most cases will tilt the go/nogo to nogo.

If you decide to do it anyways, it's because the other inputs weighed so heavily towards robbing the bank that it determined the result that I will rob the bank. That doesn't matter for the justice system. If they decide to stop prosecuting and punishing crimes because some people have bigger reasons to proceed with the robbery then punishment will no longer be a deterrent, and more people will commit crimes.

I don't think what you're describing is determinism.

You're describing causality. They're related but not identical.

k2aggie07 said:

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I don't think what you're describing is determinism.

You're describing causality. They're related but not identical.

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So what's the difference?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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If you decide

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then you have free will.

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What is a decision and how do you make it?

I believe God created humanity in a very complex manner and gave us free will. Yes, we do have thoughts that come into our mind without us making a decision for them to do so. That does not mean that we cannot choose to indulge those thoughts or dismiss them. This also does not mean that we do not have the ability to freely make choices despite what we are thinking.

A sign of maturity is to not open one's mouth everytime a thought comes to mind. If there is no free will we are fools to believe there's a right and wrong, to desire justice and distringuish between evil and good, everything just is. If one applies the view of, "there is no free will" then they would not be able to say that Hitler and his minions are evil or that they shouldn't have done that"

EDIT: "I love you" would have to be taking out of the human vocabulary because without free will that word means nothing.

So the reason that there is free will is because if there isn't then right and wrong are meaningless. Seems like that's the consequence (which is debatable), not the reason.

TexAgs91 said:

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So the reason that there is free will is because if there isn't then right and wrong are meaningless. Seems like that's the consequence (which is debatable), not the reason.

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We know right and wrong are not meaningless. I'd be happy to hit you in the face until you agree.

dds08 said:

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I like Stephen Covey and his 7 habits deal.

Everyone (every being) needs these things:

1. Direction(creativity / right brain / effectiveness) & Self-Management (efficiency / left brain)
2. Knowledge & Wisdom & Skill
3. Power & Strength
4. Safety

The Lord gives all these things and more to every being.

Not everyone consciously thinks about all these things though.

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God definitely does not give all these things to all people. Were you born yesterday?