The recent hysteria (from both sides) about Confederate statues had my wife and I discussing something last night. At what point does a statue cease to be just a statue, and start becoming a "graven image"? I've heard people say it's only a graven image if it's being worshiped, but how do we determine if something is being worshiped? IMO, this vitriolic reaction, to the point of now leading to the death of someone, is indicative of "worship". If the thought of removing a statue causes one to despise their brother, has it not crossed the line into idolatry?

As for me, take them down or leave them up....it doesn't matter to me. I do tend to agree with Robert E. Lee on this in that they should have never been erected in the first place because of the divisiveness they would foster. Let the towns decide for themselves though, and outsiders (on both sides) need to stop flooding these places creating a powder keg looking for a light. My concern is more about the faith aspect of it w/ regards to idolatry and graven images.

Possibly, but that would be for both sides if so.

Frok said:

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Possibly, but that would be for both sides if so.

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No doubt. I think we see this ideological idolatry far too often in the church.

Church is full of sinners so it will always be that way.

Frok said:

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Church is full of sinners so it will always be that way.

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Yep, which is why we must always be on guard and correct error when we see it.

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It's an ideological battle, not an issue of worship.

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I agree. The statues are irrelevant.

We need to find a way to not let social media pour gasoline on these fires. The problem is I am fair and balanced but nobody else is.

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one of my recurrent day dreams involves finding a way to wipe facebook, twitter, instagram and the likes from existence, erasing them and their data off every hard drive connected to the internet, and seeing if the world becomes a better place as a result.

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They will be replaced by something else. It's a hot take world. People love it and won't stop.

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It's an ideological battle, not an issue of worship.

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Isn't it though? I'm sure some ancient people thought statues were magic, but plenty just worshipped what the statue represented. These Confederate statues represent different things to different people. To some they are a symbol of history, to others a symbol of fighting for your beliefs even in a lost cause, to others a symbol of oppression, and to others a symbol of hatred.

I think either side could be accused of idolatry in regards to these. People are sacrificing their time, money, voice, and health to either defend or attack these statues. Someone has died to contest them, and someone has killed to defend them. How is that not worship on both sides?

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Someone has died to contest them, and someone has killed to defend them. How is that not worship on both sides?

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That's where I'm at. Clearly nobody thinks that REL is a god, but the means that people at the extremes of both sides are going to does have the stench of idolatry.

BlackGoldAg2011 said:

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Frok said:

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We need to find a way to not let social media pour gasoline on these fires. The problem is I am fair and balanced but nobody else is.

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one of my recurrent day dreams involves finding a way to wipe facebook, twitter, instagram and the likes from existence, erasing them and their data off every hard drive connected to the internet, and seeing if the world becomes a better place as a result.

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I'm less concerned about social media as I am the 24 hr news cycle.

After reading this thread I think I will put out my American flag.

UTExan said:

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After reading this thread I think I will put out my American flag.

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Congrats?

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I think either side could be accused of idolatry in regards to these. People are sacrificing their time, money, voice, and health to either defend or attack these statues. Someone has died to contest them, and someone has killed to defend them. How is that not worship on both sides?

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The statues were an excuse to get together and rally...and that's it. I don't think for a bit that this had anything to do with a statue.

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The statues were an excuse to get together and rally...and that's it. I don't think for a bit that this had anything to do with a statue

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It's almost as if the statues were given significance, importance, and meaning beyond mere rock carvings by the fervent beliefs of people

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It's almost as if the statues were given significance, importance, and meaning beyond mere rock carvings by the fervent beliefs of people

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You can be snarky if you want, but my point is that even the significance of the statues themselves wasn't the reason they were out there. (I don't believe)

diehard03 said:

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It's almost as if the statues were given significance, importance, and meaning beyond mere rock carvings by the fervent beliefs of people

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You can be snarky if you want, but my point is that even the significance of the statues themselves wasn't the reason they were out there. (I don't believe)

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Perhaps not Antifa or the Nazis, but for many people they were there for the statues. I recall seeing some guy, on Monday I think, w/ AR-15 slung on his back, go and stand before the statue and hold a salute. The statue certainly had significance for him. For the hardcore "Southern heritage" person, I do think they can certainly appear to be an idol.

Again, I'm not saying it's idolatry for everyone, but there certainly appears to be some going on here. Having been in that "Southern heritage" world for a long time, I cringe to think about the significance I placed in these things, and I saw a lot like me back then.

There are some people really into history. Civil war reenactors. Go to the renaissance festival and you'll see some real freak shows. Doesn't mean they idolize it. They just have weird hobbies. Most likely homeschooled.

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many people they were there for the statues. I recall seeing some guy, on Monday I think, w/ AR-15 slung on his back, go and stand before the statue and hold a salute. The statue certainly had significance for him.

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Again, I think the significance is more that the Trump victory was seen as a victory for their beliefs and wanted to be open about it.

I think the initial rallies were about the statues (May, July, etc). This one had bigger goals.

Romanticism of the "Lost Cause"
by Gregory S. Bucher | First Things

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Sadly, most of the debate is anchored in an analysis that freights these bronze statues with the racial politics of our own time rather than considering the motives of those who raised Confederate monuments in the later nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, during the great period of Civil War memorialization.

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This feeling lasted longer in the South, and for reasons far deeper in the human heart than the evil of racism. Those who survived tried to find a way to express their anger over young lives violently annihilated, and, given the South's total defeat, lives annihilated for nothing. If they had been fighting for slavery, that had been eliminated; if for states' rights, the Union was stronger than ever; if to protect their hearths and homes, those had been captured or destroyed. But their Romantic sensibility allowed them to discern a terrible beauty in the bravery, self-sacrifice, and excellence with which their men had fought. As a nation, we're the better for striving to overcome Jim Crow; but as a nation, we're the poorer when we fail to recognize the complicated motives of those who, though vanquished, set about to memorialize that beauty with statues and monuments.

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You don't believe Jesus is God then? Got it.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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There are some people really into history. Civil war reenactors. Go to the renaissance festival and you'll see some real freak shows. Doesn't mean they idolize it. They just have weird hobbies. Most likely homeschooled.

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You are a legend on an internet forum due to the amount of posts you have made. You have no room to be judging.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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A graven image is a physical representation of God, like what Roman Catholics draw and depict in their churches.

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You would really dislike an Orthodox Church then. I go to a RCC and wonder where are all the "graven images".

An idol can be much more than just a picture. It is anything that goes before God.

For some it might be Sunday Football keeping you from worship, or too much work keeping you from prayer and Christian charity to others etc....

I'll hold onto my "graven images"....they draw me closer to God.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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There are some people really into history. Civil war reenactors. Go to the renaissance festival and you'll see some real freak shows. Doesn't mean they idolize it. They just have weird hobbies. Most likely homeschooled.

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You are a legend on an internet forum due to the amount of posts you have made. You have no room to be judging.

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Who said I was judging? I have some weird hobbies and homeschool my kids. If society all of a sudden started to hate the evils that happened in the renaissance and wanting to outlaw the festivals, I would expect weirdos in armor out protesting. Doesn't make them bad people or idolaters. Of course, society wouldn't listen and just label them. We laugh at the puritans and their witch trials. We do the same thing. Last decade it was terrorists. Now it's racists.

Aggiefan#1 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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A graven image is a physical representation of God, like what Roman Catholics draw and depict in their churches.

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For some it might be Sunday Football keeping you from worship, or too much work keeping you from prayer and Christian charity to others etc...

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And for some it's an actual depiction of God...the definition of an idol.

k2aggie07 said:

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You don't believe Jesus is God then? Got it.

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I believe Jesus is God.

Then what's the problem with depicting Him? There are very few depictions of God the Father (and I don't agree with those either).

St John of Damascus wrote:
"when you think of God, who is a pure spirit, becoming man for your sake, then you can clothe him in a human form. When the invisible becomes visible to the eye, you may then draw his form. When he who is a pure spirit, immeasurable in the boundlessness of his own nature, existing as God, takes on the form of a servant and a body of flesh, then you may draw his likeness, and show it to anyone who is willing to contemplate it. Depict his coming down, his virgin birth, his baptism in the Jordan, his transfiguration on Mt Tabor, his all-powerful sufferings, his death and miracles, the proofs of his deity, the deeds he performed in the flesh through divine power, his saving Cross, his grave, his resurrection and his ascent into heaven. Give to it all the endurance of engraving and color."

Of course in his day the iconoclasts were Muslims. Today we face the arguments from Christians.

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when you think of God, who is a pure spirit, becoming man for your sake, then you can clothe him in a human form.

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I'll have to think about this more, but I don't have much objection to this. "thinking" about a "human form" is one thing. Once you carve something, put this particular cheek bone, this color eye, this length hair...you are making an image of God in the flesh. Or even if you do this in your mind.