Jewish Salvation vs. Christian Salvation

3,780 Views | 34 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Marco Esquandolas
Doc Daneeka
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The idea of original sin really became fully developed with Jesus. It appears that the Jews had a complete different view of man. Whereas Christians saw man as evil, Jews did not see men as born evil. It seems that the idea of original sin was a christian principle.

Therefore, the two religions concepts of salvation are completely different. Jesus' concept was based on grace where as the Jewish concept was based on mitzvah (commandment).

Thoughts?
AggieRain
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AG
Original sin.
Doc Daneeka
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I would guess that the Jewish law was about actions so man could be righteous. But then Jesus came and indicted our thoughts along with our actions. This was a lot stricter than the Jewish law. With this indictment of our thoughts we discovered no person is righteous. And we all need a savior.
Aggie4Life02
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AG
Doc Daneeka said:

The idea of original sin really became fully developed with Jesus. It appears that the Jews had a complete different view of man. Whereas Christians saw man as evil, Jews did not see men as born evil. It seems that the idea of original sin was a christian principle.

Therefore, the two religions concepts of salvation are completely different. Jesus' concept was based on grace where as the Jewish concept was based on mitzvah (commandment).

Thoughts?


The Old Testament teaches original sin and total depravity. It may be true that some Jewish sects ignore what it says, but they are ignoring the text if that is the case.
commando2004
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AG
Aggie4Life02 said:

The Old Testament teaches original sin and total depravity. It may be true that some Jewish sects ignore what it says, but they are ignoring the text if that is the case.
Where in the text do you think it says that?

The Torah is quite clear that individuals are responsible for their own sins, not their ancestors'.
Quote:

Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, and sons shall not be put to death because of fathers; a man should be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16)
This idea is discussed at length in Ezekiel 18.

But, you may ask, what about the "third and fourth generations" in Exodus 20:5? Well, note that there's a restrictive clause there.
Quote:

You shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them, for I am HASHEM, your God -- a jealous God, Who visits the sins of fathers upon children to the third and fourth generations, for My enemies; (ArtScroll Stone Edition Chumash)
Quote:

Do not bow down to them or worship them, because I, the Lord your God, am a passionate God. I punish children for their parents' sins even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me. (CEB)
Quote:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I theLord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (KJV)
IOW, if you commit the same sin that your daddy, grandpa, or great-grandpa did, then you'll get punished extra. If.

As for "total depravity", I assume that you mean the idea that mankind is "a slave to sin" and incapable of obeying the Law. Again, this is foreign to Judaism.
Quote:

...when you listen to the voice of HASHEM, your God, to observe His commandments and His decrees, that are written in this Book of the Torah, when you shall return to HASHEM your God, with all your heart and all your soul.

For this commandment that I command you today -- it is not hidden from you and it is not distant. It is not in heaven, [for you] to say, "Who can ascend to the heaven for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it? Nor is it across the sea, [for you] to say, "Who can cross to the other side of the sea for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it? Rather, the matter is very near to you -- in your mouth and in your heart -- to perform it. (Deut. 30:10-14)
Aggie4Life02
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AG
Quote:

The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Genesis 8:21 NIV
http://bible.com/111/gen.8.21.NIV


Quote:

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5 NIV
https://psalm.bible/psalm-51-5


Quote:

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9 NIV
http://bible.com/111/jer.17.9.NIV


Win At Life
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AG


The Torah is quite clear that individuals are responsible for their own sins, not their ancestors'.
Quote:

Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, and sons shall not be put to death because of fathers; a man should be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16)
This idea is discussed at length in Ezekiel 18.

This is a physical corporal punishment and not necessarily an indication of salvation of the soul. The Torah has always been interpreted on four levels. This, peshat level, or plain meaning of the text should always be the first interpretation. Interpretations beyond that hint at deeper and more spiritual meanings but are less trustworthy the deeper you go.
Doc Daneeka
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Yes those are in the OT. But from what I'm reading Jesus was the first to say that thoughts were evil. It seems that Jews were concerned with actions. So original sin was not needed. Seems that original sin as Christians know it comes from the book of Romans. Jews did not have the same view.

This is why their salvation doctrine is completely different. Christians need a savior because we believe in original sin. They don't need a savior they need to follow the commandments in the Torah.

agie95
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AG
Original sin thought by the Midrash Rabbah Deuteronomy:

"Moses said: 'Lord of the World, there are thirty-six decrees, that if a man breaks one of them he must be put to death. I did not break any of them, why do you sentence me to death? He said to me: 'In the sin of the first man you die, as he brought death unto the world.'"


The community is important. A person or a group of people can bring ruin on you and others.

Joshua 7 is an example of this. One man took something he wasn't supposed to at Jericho. The next battle at Ai was lost, 36 people killed, all b/c of one man - Achan.

A community must answer to murders in their land:

Deuteronomy 21:6-7 - All the elders of that city nearest to the slain one will wash their hands over the heifer whose neck was broken in the wadi. 7 Then they will answer and say, 'Our hands did not shed this blood, nor did our eyes see.

The commandments teach you must take care of the less fortunate:

Deuteronomy 15:7 - "If there is a poor man among youany of your brothers within any of your gates in your land that Adonai your God is giving youyou are not to harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother.

The beginning of Moses speech to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy is a rebuke. He replays the setting up of men to judge - rebuke.

Leviticus 19:17 - "You are not to hate your brother in your heart. Instead, you are to firmly rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

Similar to 2 Timothy 3:15-16 - and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings (Torah and the prophets) that are able to make you wise, leading to salvation through trusting in Messiah Yeshua. 16 All Scripture (only the Torah and Prophets existed) is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for restoration, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the person belonging to God may be capable, fully equipped for every good deed.
booboo91
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Doc Daneeka said:

I would guess that the Jewish law was about actions so man could be righteous. But then Jesus came and indicted our thoughts along with our actions. This was a lot stricter than the Jewish law. With this indictment of our thoughts we discovered no person is righteous. And we all need a savior.
Agree with much of what you say, but want to clarify. The Jews (OT) always recognized God as their savior. Repent/(Turn to) God/Jesus is not a new notion. This message is the same in OT and NT.

Isaiah 30:15 "This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it."

Detronomy 6 4-9 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength. Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today. Drill them into your children. Speak of them at home and abroad, whether you are busy or at rest. Bind them at your wrist as a sign and let them be as a pendant on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates.

Comment- notice how important this verse is, all the exclamation points, and all the requirements, after the fact. God is their savior, give everything to God.

As you know Jesus is God in the flesh. There is no conflict between God Father and the Son. But if you miss Jesus (NT), you miss fullfillment of OT, you miss God's clarificaiton and intimacy. You miss how the story ends.
agie95
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AG
Galatians 3:8-9 - The Scriptures, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the Good News to Abraham in advance, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed through you." 9 So then, the faithful are blessed along with Abraham, the faithful one.


v16 - The Scriptures, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the Good News to Abraham in advance, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed through you." 9 So then, the faithful are blessed along with Abraham, the faithful one.

v29 - And if you belong to Messiah, then you are Abraham's seedheirs according to the promise.




The promise existed long before Yeshua lived on earth. Jews believed in the grafting in to Avraham long before Yeshua:

Regarding Genesis 12:3 - My desire is to bless those who bless you, but whoever curses you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Regarding be blessed:

In five places in the Talmud and other Rabbinic literature, nivrecu is translated as "grafted or intermingled." In the Orthodox Jewish ArtScroll Tanakh Series, Volume 1, page 432, it is written:

There is ... an opinion shared by Rashbam [to Genesis 28:14], Chizkuni, Da'as Zekeinum, and quoted by Tur that the verb (ve nivrecu - be blessed) in Genesis 12:3 is related to the root barak as in the Mishnaic term mavreek meaning to "intermingle or graft." [cf Kelaim 7:1, Sotah 43a.] As Heidenheim explains it, this interpretation is inspired by the fact that nowhere else besides here do we find barak in the sense of blessing in the niphal conjugation, while in the sense of "grafting" it is common in that form.

Therefore, Genesis 12:3 can be translated And in you shall all families of the earth be grafted.


The same "rest" has been proclaimed to the Jews:

Hebrews 4:1-3 - Let us fear then! Though a promise of entering His rest is left open, some of you would seem to have fallen short. 2 For we also have had Good News proclaimed to us, just as they did. But the word they heard did not help them, because they were not unified with those who listened in faith. 3 For we who have trusted are entering into that rest. It is just as God has said,
"So in My wrath I swore, 'They shall never enter My rest,'" even though His works were finished since the foundation of the world.

They did not listen in faith. Listening is not just hearing. Listening is hearing then acting upon what you heard. Shema. Hear and obey. They did not enter b/c they did not obey with faith. There hearts were not circumcised.

Hebrews 3:16-19 - Now which ones heard and rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt with Moses? 17 And with whom was He provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest? Was it not to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter in because of lack of trust.
Doc Daneeka
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Agie I don't know what you are trying to say? Please explain the verse postings
booboo91
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In OT it was prayer, repentance and actions following the law (this including good works).

In NT is very similar it is faith in Jesus (Faith first) AND then following Jesus (laws of love, Actions- Good Works- we are called to be active participants- we are Jesus Hands, Feet ).

Note: Martin Luther gets it wrong with use of this word "Solo/Only/ Alone" By using "Only"- he leaves a lot out. Truth it is love God/Jesus (faith) and love Neighbor (Action/Works). It is a one two punch. They go together, Like Shampoo and Conditioner or Peanutbutter and Jelly.

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

"Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. John 21:17

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, Matt 25:35


Doc Daneeka
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Nope. It's faith alone. Don't derail
agie95
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AG
Dude, the same salvation existed for Avraham, Moses, David, etc as it is today. That is what Paul is saying in Galatians 3.

I provided Jewish support for those outside the covenant with God, Gentiles, can be grafted in, just as today. For the "new" covenant was made with the House of Israel and Judah, not Gentiles.

Hebrews 3 & 4 shows that sin hardens the heart and shown in Zechariah 7:12. Those who sinned, disobedient. The writer of Hebrews then says we are not able to enter b/c of a lack of trust. No trust/belief/faith = no obedience = not with God (Matthew 7:21-23).

Hebrews 3:12-19 - Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you has an evil heart of unbelief that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day by dayas long as it is called "Today"so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partners of Messiah, if we hold our original conviction firm until the end. 15 As it is said,
"Today if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 Now which ones heard and rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt with Moses? 17 And with whom was He provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest? Was it not to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter in because of lack of trust.




You turn to God in faith, but obedience should follow:

Hebrews 5:9 - And once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Acts 5:32 - And we are witnesses of these eventsas is the Ruach ha-Kodesh, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

John 14:15 - "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21 - He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me.

2 John 1:6-7 - Now this is love: that we walk according to His commands. This is the commandmentjust as you heard from the beginningthat you walk in love.

1 John 2:3-6 - Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked.

How did Yeshua walk? Following all the Torah that applied to Him! If you abide in Him, then you should walk out your faith as He did!






Doc Daneeka
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Paul's take on salvation was not the Jews version. He was a Christian after his conversion.

Doc Daneeka
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The grafted in stuff is Christian doctrine. The Jews did not believe Gentiles were grafted in.
Doc Daneeka
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Merely quoting scripture does not explain how someone believes just like quoting the constitution does not explain what justice Ginsburg or justice scalia believed.... Even though they had the same texts... They had vastly different interpretations...

Aggie4Life02
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AG
Doc Daneeka said:

Yes those are in the OT. But from what I'm reading Jesus was the first to say that thoughts were evil. It seems that Jews were concerned with actions. So original sin was not needed. Seems that original sin as Christians know it comes from the book of Romans. Jews did not have the same view.

This is why their salvation doctrine is completely different. Christians need a savior because we believe in original sin. They don't need a savior they need to follow the commandments in the Torah.




Original sin is the sin nature. It's not that we are punished for Adam's sin, it's that Adam's fall tainted our nature.

As far as thought being evil in Judaism, 1 of the 10 commandments is a thought sin. So to say Jesus brought up some new concept is not correct.
Doc Daneeka
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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judaism-s-rejection-of-original-sin

http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-1571/correcting-the-torah-reader/?p=1459

http://pathoftorah.com/jewish-apologetics/original-sin/

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/human-nature
Doc Daneeka
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The Jews did not believe sin tainted our nature as Christians believe. They believed Adam sinned. That's the end of it. They didn't believe in blood treason as Christians do...
Aggie4Life02
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AG
Doc Daneeka said:

The Jews did not believe sin tainted our nature as Christians believe. They believed Adam sinned. That's the end of it. They didn't believe in blood treason as Christians do...


I'm not arguing Jews believe what Christians do. I'm pointing out the Old Testament teaches original sin. So if Jews don't believe it, it is because they are ignoring what the OT says.
agie95
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AG
You can come up with what internet sources you want. The thought of original sin by the ancient rabbi's is:

Midrash Rabbah Deuteronomy:

"Moses said: 'Lord of the World, there are thirty-six decrees, that if a man breaks one of them he must be put to death. I did not break any of them, why do you sentence me to death? He said to me: 'In the sin of the first man you die, as he brought death unto the world.'"


The Midrash Rabbah is a Jewish text based on ancient rabbi's. There are more texts in the midrash as well that state similar thoughts. The Rabbi's of today will do anything to separate from Christianity. Most of those internet sites you linked are reform or conservative. They are not real Judaism.

Talmud Tractate Avodah Zarah 20b note 5:

It was Eve's covetous gaze at the Tree of Knowledge that gave the Angel of Death power over man. For the verse states Genesis 3:6 - And the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and that it was a desire to the eyes. This tells us that Man's original sin was rooted in desire fomented by the eyes - Adam and Eve ate b/c what they aw inflamed their desire. It was this sin that brought the poison of the Evil Inclination into Man.

The Talmud is about as Jewish as a text as you can get.

Please stop telling us what is Jewish based on what you read on some internet site. Anyone, and I mean anyone can create a website. This does not make them an authority.
Doc Daneeka
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So agie... Your saying that the majority of Rabbi's today are wrong? Cuz this is a general consensus among Jewish Rabbis...

You can pick something out of a Talmud but... Once again that does not explain what the Jews believe...

So are you Jewish?
And if so ... Are you a certain sect that does not follow the majority of Jewish thought?

Anyone... And I mean anyone can make a website... I agree... Anyone and I mean anyone can pick a verse out of the Talmud and claim Jews believe it...
ramblin_ag02
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If you actually want to know what Jews were thinking around the time of Jesus, then this is a great resource. I'm a big fan of her podcasts.

http://understandingsin.com/

Dr Brand is an Orthodox Jew whose entire life of research is devoted to tracking the concepts of sin in the Jewish religion from antiquity to now. Her main focus is the Second Temple period, but she's insanely learned at every stage in history.

Also, there is no one Jewish opinion on any subject. For thousands of years, the Jewish people have held and continue to hold varied and numerous beliefs on a great many subjects, and this is certainly one of them.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
agie95
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AG
Doc Daneeka said:

So agie... Your saying that the majority of Rabbi's today are wrong? Cuz this is a general consensus among Jewish Rabbis...

You can pick something out of a Talmud but... Once again that does not explain what the Jews believe...

So are you Jewish?
And if so ... Are you a certain sect that does not follow the majority of Jewish thought?

Anyone... And I mean anyone can make a website... I agree... Anyone and I mean anyone can pick a verse out of the Talmud and claim Jews believe it...
I said many Rabbi's today will do anything to counteract Christianity. They will even be dishonest to themselves. The anti-missionary rabbi's say all kinds of things that goes against everything the Sages taught. I have already said as much.

If it is written in the Talmud then there are Jews who believe it. The Talmud is the most studied book outside of the Bible in Judaism. In some cases, the Talmud is studied more than the Bible itself.

Yes, I converted to Judaism. This does not have an ounce of weight in this discussion though.

The Messiah did not come to create another religion. He came to bring the truth - Torah and to reconcile the House of Israel and Judah.

Not just anyone can physically pick up the Talmud, turn a page, and recite from the Talmud from the Midrash from many other sources. If something made it into the Talmud it is pretty important to them. You obviously don't understand the importance of it in a Jewish person's life.

Are there rabbi's with differing opinions? Of course. The Talmud, for instance, has many debates over this or that issue. Stop purporting that Judaism believes in X. It simply is not true. You don't understand Judaism.

Doc Daneeka
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Oh this is gonna be good. So you're a convert huh.. When I get home from work... I'm gonna let you explain some things from the Talmud to me... Since you know it so well... Lol
Doc Daneeka
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The Talmud is such a fresh and enlightening book hahhaha
agie95
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AG
You are going to be waiting a while then....the Sabbath starts this evening and I don't get online to come here.
Doc Daneeka
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Inwont tell you what you believe... But it does seem that a lot of your beliefs aren't held by the majority of Jews from what I've read...

Not sure what sect you follow but... Original sin is not a blood treason according to most rabbis like it is in Christianity... But then again maybe I'm just being goy headed believing what rabbis say lol
agie95
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AG
More Jewish sources of the idea of the original sin...

"Now Oved begot Jesse, who was called Nahash, because no corruption and perversion, for which he might be delivered into the hands of the angel of death, who would take his life from him, were found in him. He lived a long time, until the serpent's counsel to Eve, Adam's wife, to partake of the fruit of the tree, the eating of which resulted in wisdom to distinguish between good and evil, was recalled before God. Because of that counsel, all inhabitants of the earth are mortal, and as a result of that blunder, the righteous Jesse died. He is Jesse, who was the father of David, the king of Israel." Targum Ruth 4:22


"Our Rabbis taught: Four died through the counsel of the serpent, namely, Benjamin son of Jacob, Amram the father of Moses, Jesse the father of David, and Kilab the son of David." Bava Basra 17a

The Soncino footnote explains the meaning of the phrase "the counsel of the serpent," "The counsel given by the serpent to Eve, which brought death on all mankind, and not for any sin they themselves committed.

"For, indeed, "there is not a righteous man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not" (Eccl. 7:20). And even the sinless ones who only died because of the "counsel of the Serpent" will arise and be counselors to the Messiah." Zohar II:54a
,
"R. Yesa said: Adam appears to every man at the moment of his departure from life to testify that the man is dying on account of his own sins and not the sin of Adam, according to the dictum, 'there is no death without sin'. There are only three exceptions, namely, Amram, Levi, and Benjamin, who were deprived of life through the prompting of the primeval serpent; some add also, Jesse. These did not sin, and no ground could be assigned for their death save the prompting of the serpent, as we have said." Zohar I:57b

"Bnei Yisrael were susceptible to the arrogance of Egypt, only because the seeds of arrogance that had already been planted within them by Adam's sin. Since the souls of all mankind were included in Adam's soul, we were all party to his sin, and we are all still marked by its effect. Through our Torah and mitzvos, we strive to correct Adam's sin, which sullied the entire human race with arrogance. . . The ultimate perfection of human character will occur with the coming of Moshiach, when Adam's sin of arrogance will be entirely corrected. In this merit, we will finally be able to understand the deepest secrets of the Torah, of which the Midrash states: "The Torah that man learns in this world is like mist compared to the Torah that will be taught by Mashiach (Messiah).
Mevaser Tov, The Biala Rebbe, Sefirat HaOmer, pg. 251


"And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the Torah, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite you on your head to kill you. But when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the Torah, and perform not (its) instructions, you will be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for you, serpent, there shall be no medicine. However, for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha." Targum Jonathan on Genesis 3:15

Targum are Aramaic translations of the Tanakh. Jonathan's and Onkelos' are the two most popular Onkelos's Targum was written during the 1st century and Jonathan's in the second century.

I have now provided 5 different sources of the concept of Adam's sin effecting all mankind. All 5 sources are independent of each other. All sources are completely Jewish....Orthodox Jewish.
Doc Daneeka
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Should we really bring in the Talmud...

Prolly in your best interest we dont let its gloriousness out..
Ol_Ag_02
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AG
There is no original sin.
Doc Daneeka
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Ol_Ag_02 said:

There is no original sin.
Christians believe it. i believe it. Are you an atheist or some other religion?
Doc Daneeka
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ramblin_ag02 said:

If you actually want to know what Jews were thinking around the time of Jesus, then this is a great resource. I'm a big fan of her podcasts.

http://understandingsin.com/

Dr Brand is an Orthodox Jew whose entire life of research is devoted to tracking the concepts of sin in the Jewish religion from antiquity to now. Her main focus is the Second Temple period, but she's insanely learned at every stage in history.

Also, there is no one Jewish opinion on any subject. For thousands of years, the Jewish people have held and continue to hold varied and numerous beliefs on a great many subjects, and this is certainly one of them.
I lost your post during the exchange. Just listened to first podcast... It was great!
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