I've never understood the new wine skins and the old patch analogies Jesus uses in response to the lack of fasting by his disciples. Jesus explains he is the bridegroom but I don't see the analogy. It seems like he says they can enjoy themselves while he's around but then the analogies don't seem to fit. What am i missing? (PREFERABLY Protestants reply...)
Mark 2:18-22
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Last: 6 yr ago by Doc Daneeka
Quote:
Question: "What is the meaning of the parables of fasting at the wedding feast, the old cloth, and the wineskins?"
Answer: These parables, found in Mark 2:18-22, begin with a statement that the Pharisees and the disciples of John the Baptist were fasting. The twice-weekly fast was a tradition adopted by the legalistic Pharisees at the time, even though the Mosaic Law prescribed only one fast on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:29, 31). Some people came to Jesus and asked Him why His disciples did not fast like the Pharisees and those of John's disciples who had remained loyal to the Pharisaic traditions. Jesus' response is given in three short parables.
The first one is a parable of a bridegroom with his groomsmen at a wedding feast. Jesus' point is that fasting during the wedding feast is pointless. In this story Jesus is the Bridegroom, and while He is present in this world, it is a time of celebration because He is the fulfillment of their Messianic prophecies. Jesus Himself said that He came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17). To continue fasting with Jesus present is akin to fasting and being mournful during a wedding celebration in which the groom is present.
The other two parables, which are similar, make the same point. The first one says you don't put a new patch on an old garment, and the second says you don't put new wine into an old wineskin. In the first parable, if you put a new patch on an old garment, when the new patch shrinks due to washing, it will tear away from the older garment, making the tear worse. Similarly, new wine needs a new wineskin because as the new wine expands during the fermentation process, it stretches the wineskin. An old wineskin will burst under the pressure of new wine.
These two parables illustrate the fact that you can't mix old religious rituals with new faith in Jesus. Jesus' disciples were not fasting along with the Pharisees and John's disciples because they were now under the new covenant of grace and faith in Christ. As mentioned earlier, Jesus fulfilled the law; therefore, there is no longer any need to continue with the old rituals. Jesus cannot be added to a works-based religion. In the case of the Pharisees, they were consumed with their own self-righteousness, and faith in Jesus cannot be combined with self-righteous rituals.
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Doc Daneeka said:
I've never understood the new wine skins and the old patch analogies Jesus uses in response to the lack of fasting by his disciples. Jesus explains he is the bridegroom but I don't see the analogy. It seems like he says they can enjoy themselves while he's around but then the analogies don't seem to fit. What am i missing? (PREFERABLY Protestants reply...)
But dude...I thought you had the full grasp of the gospel...seems like some serious questions here...maybe one of our residents Catholic or Orthodox apologists will be along soon to explain it to you..
Quote:
These two parables illustrate the fact that you can't mix old religious rituals with new faith in Jesus. Jesus' disciples were not fasting along with the Pharisees and John's disciples because they were now under the new covenant of grace and faith in Christ. As mentioned earlier, Jesus fulfilled the law; therefore, there is no longer any need to continue with the old rituals. Jesus cannot be added to a works-based religion. In the case of the Pharisees, they were consumed with their own self-righteousness, and faith in Jesus cannot be combined with self-righteous rituals.
Good explanation overall, but I thought this part was a bit of a reach. The principle difference between old and new cloth and old and new wineskins is flexibility. A new patch may shrink while the old fabric won't. So when you wash them the patch will pull off or rip the old garment. New wine is still fermenting, which gives off gas. A new wineskin will stretch to accommodate this, but an old one will not. So the old wineskin bursts when the new wine is added.
So Jesus is saying that you can't change someone with inflexible beliefs. They are old garments or old wineskins, and they are too inflexible to accept his teachings. They are so set in their own ways that they could never turn towards him. When presented with information that contradicts their own thoughts and teachings, they won't listen and consider. They will lash out and protect their current beliefs and practices at all costs.
It's kind of impressive that some tried to work in a grace v. works proof to this parable, but I don't see that it fits at all.
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As I was reading this, I said to myself this sounds like a got questions answer.....sure enough.
This couldn't miss the mark any more than it did. Got Questions is a terrible and I do mean terrible source.
Luke 5:36-39 has the same wineskin analogy with an added statement...v39 - And no one after
drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, 'The old is better.'"
Believers must stop removing any Jewish context from the Scriptures if they want to truly understand the text. Yeshua is a Jew! He followed Torah. We are to imitate Him (1 John 2:6, 1 Cor. 11:1). That means that God's children should be following Torah.
The Hebrew word for faith is emunah. There is no Hebrew word for faith apart from faithfulness. If you trust in God, then you follow His will. His will for His children is to follow Torah. This is why in the Millennial Kingdom the Torah will flow from where He is at (Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:2-5). There must be obedience to whomever you call your master. If it is God then you follow God's instructions, if it is anything else it is sin.
Most people think this is speaking of mixing "old religious rituals" with this new faith. Got Questions also states "Jesus cannot be added to a works-based religion". What? Judaism is not a works based system. Salvation is not and never was based on works in Judaism per the Torah. It does not make any sense that "Jesus" fulfilled the Torah so you don't have to do it. This would make Him a false prophet per Deuteronomy 12:32-13:4.
One of the commandments is not to have relations with an animal. Is this fulfilled as well? Does anyone with a sane mind think that it is good to have relations with an animal? What about not committing idolatry? If He fulfilled the Torah, then one can be involved with idolatry right?
Daniel Lancaster offers the following paraphrase:
``No one teaches new Torah-teaching to old (previously educated) students. If he does, the new teaching will be rejected, the student will be lost. No. Instead new Torah-teaching must be taught to new students. And no one after receiving old teaching (previous education) wants the new, for he says, `The old teaching is better'''
This is similar to the teachings in Pikei Avot 4:20:
``Elisha ben Avuyah said: `He who studies as a child, unto what can he be compared? He can be compared to ink written upon a fresh [new] sheet of paper. But he who studies as an adult, unto what can he be compared? He can be compared to ink written on a smudged [previously used and erased] sheet of paper.'''
Again, if Yeshua came to rid the Torah from the lives of the "chosen people" then He is a false prophet and is not the Messiah.
This couldn't miss the mark any more than it did. Got Questions is a terrible and I do mean terrible source.
Luke 5:36-39 has the same wineskin analogy with an added statement...v39 - And no one after
drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, 'The old is better.'"
Believers must stop removing any Jewish context from the Scriptures if they want to truly understand the text. Yeshua is a Jew! He followed Torah. We are to imitate Him (1 John 2:6, 1 Cor. 11:1). That means that God's children should be following Torah.
The Hebrew word for faith is emunah. There is no Hebrew word for faith apart from faithfulness. If you trust in God, then you follow His will. His will for His children is to follow Torah. This is why in the Millennial Kingdom the Torah will flow from where He is at (Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:2-5). There must be obedience to whomever you call your master. If it is God then you follow God's instructions, if it is anything else it is sin.
Most people think this is speaking of mixing "old religious rituals" with this new faith. Got Questions also states "Jesus cannot be added to a works-based religion". What? Judaism is not a works based system. Salvation is not and never was based on works in Judaism per the Torah. It does not make any sense that "Jesus" fulfilled the Torah so you don't have to do it. This would make Him a false prophet per Deuteronomy 12:32-13:4.
One of the commandments is not to have relations with an animal. Is this fulfilled as well? Does anyone with a sane mind think that it is good to have relations with an animal? What about not committing idolatry? If He fulfilled the Torah, then one can be involved with idolatry right?
Daniel Lancaster offers the following paraphrase:
``No one teaches new Torah-teaching to old (previously educated) students. If he does, the new teaching will be rejected, the student will be lost. No. Instead new Torah-teaching must be taught to new students. And no one after receiving old teaching (previous education) wants the new, for he says, `The old teaching is better'''
This is similar to the teachings in Pikei Avot 4:20:
``Elisha ben Avuyah said: `He who studies as a child, unto what can he be compared? He can be compared to ink written upon a fresh [new] sheet of paper. But he who studies as an adult, unto what can he be compared? He can be compared to ink written on a smudged [previously used and erased] sheet of paper.'''
Again, if Yeshua came to rid the Torah from the lives of the "chosen people" then He is a false prophet and is not the Messiah.
What?
I don't get an explanation of the parables from what you wrote at all.
I don't get an explanation of the parables from what you wrote at all.
I think you're right that Jesus was a Jew and knowledge of Jewish customs may illuminate the context.
But Jewish salvation was based on works. Hence why they have the 613 commandments tradition. Jesus did create a new "works free" covenant based on grace.
But the meaning still escapes me. If it was about being inflexible the. Why did he say that the disciple would fast when he was gone? (In response to ramblin)
But Jewish salvation was based on works. Hence why they have the 613 commandments tradition. Jesus did create a new "works free" covenant based on grace.
But the meaning still escapes me. If it was about being inflexible the. Why did he say that the disciple would fast when he was gone? (In response to ramblin)
Can you provide Scripture to back up your theory of Judaism was a works based system?Doc Daneeka said:
I think you're right that Jesus was a Jew and knowledge of Jewish customs may illuminate the context.
But Jewish salvation was based on works. Hence why they have the 613 commandments tradition. Jesus did create a new "works free" covenant based on grace.
But the meaning still escapes me. If it was about being inflexible the. Why did he say that the disciple would fast when he was gone? (In response to ramblin)
Are Christians required to keep any commandments?
Can you provide any verses showing this new covenant abolishes the Torah? Or is based on grace?
Are you saying grace exists now, but did not prior to the death and resurrection?
Quote:
But the meaning still escapes me. If it was about being inflexible the. Why did he say that the disciple would fast when he was gone? (In response to ramblin)
You'd have to look at why the Pharisees of that time were fasting. I found this
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/fasting-and-fast-days#2
Quote:
During the Second Temple period, daily or biweekly fastings were practiced for reasons of asceticism , especially among women (Judith 8:6; Luke 2:37; TJ, ag 2:2, 77d), but also among men (Luke 18:12; Mark 2:18), or in preparation for an apocalyptic revelation (Dan. 10:3, 12; ii Bar. 12:5; 20:521:1; 43:3; iv Ezra 5:1320; 6:35; Sanh. 65b; TJ, Kil. 9:4, 32b). The Jewish literature of the Second Temple period also advocates fasting as a way of atonement for sins committed either unintentionally (Ps. of Sol. 3:9) or even deliberately (Test. Patr., Sim. 3:4), or to prevent them (ibid., Joseph 3:4; 4:8; 10:12)
In the Second Temple period fasting was also seen as an "ascetic exercise" which serves to purify man and bring him closer to God.
So the Pharisees were fasting to bring themselves closer to God and maybe to receive some divine revelation. Thus the immense irony of the Pharisees asking Jesus why he and his followers didn't fast to become closer to God. So it doesn't make any sense for the disciples to fast when Jesus is walking among them, but it would make sense for them to fast after he was gone.
Jesus could have pointed out his divinity, as he did on other occasions, and shown them the absurdity of the question. Instead he just talks about how they wouldn't accept it. He knows they are so set in their own minds that even God standing in front of them and telling them the truth wouldn't work.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Actually, I think I'll rather enjoy a Doc Daneeka vs Agie fight.
Man agie might be right... Salvation appeared to be a whole different concept.. But whatever the concept was... the commandments are what Jews followed to get it...
Seems like some Jews did not even believe in the afterlife
Seems like some Jews did not even believe in the afterlife
I'd be lying if I said I didn't think the exact same thing.swimmerbabe11 said:
Actually, I think I'll rather enjoy a Doc Daneeka vs Agie fight.
I think you're right ramblin.
You are making claims that you are unable or at least to this point haven't supported. Salvation is the same. Turn to God and be saved - Isaiah 45:22Doc Daneeka said:
Man agie might be right... Salvation appeared to be a whole different concept.. But whatever the concept was... the commandments are what Jews followed to get it...
Seems like some Jews did not even believe in the afterlife
Jews don't believe in the afterlife? Say what? Where are you getting your information?
There is the Millennial Kingdom explained in Ezekiel 40-48. There are chapters and segment of chapters in Isaiah, Micah, Jeremiah, etc about the Millennial Kingdom.
The Pharisees, they believed in the resurrection. Sadducees, not to much...they were a sola scriptura group.
This point is even discussed in Acts 23:7-8 - When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say there is no resurrection or angel or spirit, but the Pharisees affirm them all.
I read salvation (Judaism) on britannica online... Said that the idea of an afterlife didn't arise till 2nd century bce.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/salvation-religion
Also this website said salvation was different. Don't know if they are right. But I'm at work and don't have time to fully rebut.
http://www.jewfaq.org/search.shtml?Keywords=salvation
https://www.britannica.com/topic/salvation-religion
Also this website said salvation was different. Don't know if they are right. But I'm at work and don't have time to fully rebut.
http://www.jewfaq.org/search.shtml?Keywords=salvation
swimmerbabe11 said:
Actually, I think I'll rather enjoy a Doc Daneeka vs Agie fight.
This. Doc is the Titanic and 95 is the iceberg.
You go to a non-Jewish source to tell you about Judaism? smh. This is completely false. The prophets spoke about the afterlife many times.
Your source goes on about salvation, looks into the word. Speaks about the Greek, Latin, the English, but never goes into the Hebrew? What? Seriously? If want a view about the Bible you go go the original language...Hebrew!
Jewfaq.com is a website based on modern views and not Judaism as a whole. When one wants to reference real sources about Judaism, you go to the Talmud or Midrash, or one of the many Chumash's.
You continue to deflect and not answer my questions which is really just support for your earlier statements.
Your source goes on about salvation, looks into the word. Speaks about the Greek, Latin, the English, but never goes into the Hebrew? What? Seriously? If want a view about the Bible you go go the original language...Hebrew!
Jewfaq.com is a website based on modern views and not Judaism as a whole. When one wants to reference real sources about Judaism, you go to the Talmud or Midrash, or one of the many Chumash's.
You continue to deflect and not answer my questions which is really just support for your earlier statements.
So are you jewish? Im confused. You telling me britannica is wrong and jewfaq is wrong? I mean they might be but id be hard pressed to take your word unless your jewish.
plus the talmud is all over the place. there are many types and they say all diff types of stuff
plus the talmud is all over the place. there are many types and they say all diff types of stuff
Here is another website called "being jewish" ... Salvation does not mean same thing as christianity salvation...
http://www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html
http://www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html
agie is jewish?AstroAg17 said:
You're trying to tell agie95 what he believes, you tried to tell K2 what he believes, and you tried to tell woody what he believes, all while they denied believing those things. You've amassed more strawman kills in the last 2 weeks than most people will ever have.
If agie is jewish then why he trying to tell me what christians believe? lol
shhhhh this is fun.
i hope he is... cuz i will embarrass him...
Well, he knows better than they what their beliefs are because he has full grasp of the gospel, being a Protestant and all.AstroAg17 said:
You're trying to tell agie95 what he believes, you tried to tell K2 what he believes, and you tried to tell woody what he believes, all while they denied believing those things. You've amassed more strawman kills in the last 2 weeks than most people will ever have.
There's that Christ-like spirit for which Doc is known.Quote:
i hope he is... cuz i will embarrass him...
No no this is actually pretty funny.
AstroAg17 said:
You've amassed more strawman kills in the last 2 weeks than most people will ever have.
Agie worships Judaism but he's not Jewish. In the 1960's-1970's the true version of Christianity was finally nailed down.Doc Daneeka said:
So are you jewish? Im confused. You telling me britannica is wrong and jewfaq is wrong? I mean they might be but id be hard pressed to take your word unless your jewish.
plus the talmud is all over the place. there are many types and they say all diff types of stuff
Phew, just in time.
Yeshua's parables are in response to why not continue in fasting as a form of mourning for past events. In that context the meaning of the parables is that you must put away past sorrows to move unto a brighter life in the future.
Where did agie go?
I am right here Huckleberry.
I am still waiting for answers to my questions which is really asking for support for your answers.
I am still waiting for answers to my questions which is really asking for support for your answers.
I am still waiting for you to embarrass me.
agie95 said:
I am still waiting for you to embarrass me.
Don't you worry bud lol... You will be... Convert to Judaism... Gimme a break
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