Morality of IVF

4,391 Views | 61 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Kool
Kool
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AG
Yes, that's part of why it is so personal for me.
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OnlyForNow
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AG
I wrote out a long response but then TA crashed, I got a screen shot of it so here ya go.

I am enjoying this discussion though.
Did you and your wife have a successful pregnancy?

Kool
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AG
Yes, and I am heading out the door now to pick him up from playing at a friends house. If the pregnancy were not successful, we would have gladly adopted. Being a dad, for me, is magical.
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I am legend
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I find it odd that a person can accept that a perfect loving all powerful all knowing god created the mechanics of reproduction that result in billions of babies being miscarried, yet if there is some science involved with the purpose to create life that results in a few embryos not being used or destroyed, suddenly it's a big deal. God gave us brains and science so why is this not an extension of his will? No matter how you spin it far fewer babies are dying with IVF than with the natural god given process.
swimmerbabe11
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Fascinating use of a sock.
OnlyForNow
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AG
He isn't completely wrong in his analogy though.

I believe God gives us the ability to make our own choices, He may ask us why we decided to abort a baby. He may ask why we decided not to have 7 kids but instead had 3 and tried to adopt out the 4 other healthy embryos but couldn't do so, and thus chose to not implant them and destroy them.

I'm ok with my relationship with God enough tha I'll be able to answer the questions asked to me. I believe that he will still welcome me with open arms.
I am legend
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Fascinating use of a sock.


I think it's an interesting conversation. I have family members who experienced multiple miscarriages. They used IVF. They may again for their next kids. It's odd that they are fine if they keep trying and having the inevitable miscarriage but not okay if they use IVF and have far fewer miscarriages. Why is it wrong if they have a few extra embryos that may not be used but it's cool if they leave it to natural processes which medically mean almost certainty of miscarriage?
swimmerbabe11
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Not really, plenty of scientific advances have been used for evil.

The fact that we can doesn't mean we should. (Cue Jurassic park gif)
OnlyForNow
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AG
Who is this in response to?
I am legend
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Not really, plenty of scientific advances have been used for evil.

The fact that we can doesn't mean we should. (Cue Jurassic park gif)


I'll happily accept that not all scientific advances are for good but we are talking about a specific scientific advancement that turns many couples from miscarriage factories into baby factories with fewer embryos lost. This is a good thing. It's clearly a good thing.

If a few embryos being lost is a tragedy then you must accept that the natural system god set up leads to horrific tragedy.
swimmerbabe11
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Only for Now, it was particularly to this

Quote:

. God gave us brains and science so why is this not an extension of his will?

but now he has answered that, so forward on.

I think purposefully discarding embryos is a very serious grey area I'm not comfortable with. I'm definitely not comfortable with the process of implanting many knowing most wont make it/endorsing abortion in the case of multiples.

Do you have any sort of statistics to back up that "less die with IVF" ?

I would not choose IVF for myself if I had trouble, but I have always felt a particular calling towards adoption. I am very uncomfortable with much of what goes on during the IVF process.
I am legend
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Only for Now, it was particularly to this

Quote:

. God gave us brains and science so why is this not an extension of his will?

but now he has answered that, so forward on.

I think purposefully discarding embryos is a very serious grey area I'm not comfortable with. I'm definitely not comfortable with the process of implanting many knowing most wont make it/endorsing abortion in the case of multiples.

Do you have any sort of statistics to back up that "less die with IVF" ?

I would not choose IVF for myself if I had trouble, but I have always felt a particular calling towards adoption. I am very uncomfortable with much of what goes on during the IVF process.


It's as grey an area as trying to have kids when you have biological issues that make it very unlikely.
Kool
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AG
I am legend said:

I find it odd that a person can accept that a perfect loving all powerful all knowing god created the mechanics of reproduction that result in billions of babies being miscarried, yet if there is some science involved with the purpose to create life that results in a few embryos not being used or destroyed, suddenly it's a big deal. God gave us brains and science so why is this not an extension of his will? No matter how you spin it far fewer babies are dying with IVF than with the natural god given process.
I understand completely. The Catholic Church's teaching is difficult for me to comprehend or square. My thought process was that, if I were trying to accomplish a good, and using only that which came from me and from my wife, and were willing to accept the results of whatever occurred, my aim would be towards a good and therefore not sinful. Catholic teaching through the Catechism differs from this.
http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html#570

And from a Catholic website:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/babies-deserve-better
Quote:

The Baby's Rights

Most people intuit that intercourse should be something more than a physical process aimed at making a babythat the baby himself has a right to be created through the loving union of two persons. This intuition helps to explain why couples who use IUI and other reproductive technologies continue to make love in the hope that their child will be the result of a natural conception, achieved without the intervention of a third party. It also permits the couple to believe that their baby is the product of their conjugal love in spite of their use of a procedure aimed at conceiving a child outside of a specific conjugal act. In effect, these couples presume that IUI and IVF are personal acts because they occur within the context of ongoing marital relations. But not every sexual act that may occur within marriagesodomy, for exampleis a personal act. As suggested above, a personal act harmonizes the spiritual and physical welfare of each spouse. This integration is what distinguishes mere reproduction from procreationcreation that seeks to imitate God in his own generosity and fecundity (CCC 2335). In so doing, the couple extends God an invitation to enter into and bless their sexual union in whatever way he desires. This idea, that a child has the right to be created by God through a specific personal act, is especially stressed in Donum Vitae:
Quote:

Conception in vitro is the result of the technical action that presides over fertilization. . . . The generation of the human person is objectively deprived of its proper perfection: namely, that of being the result and fruit of a conjugal act in which the spouses can become "cooperators with God for giving life to a new person." These reasons enable us to understand why the act of conjugal love is . . . the only setting worthy of human procreation (DV II, 5).
To conceive a child through a technological process that replaces the conjugal act is to subject him to the "standards of control and dominion" inherent to the scientific method. As such, the baby becomes an object of micromanipulation rather than the fruit of a personal union sanctified by God.

Christians who approve of IUI and IVF maintain that these "artificial means merely assist the natural process." The Church, though, teaches that these procedures replace the conjugal act. Donum Vitae clarifies this difference: "A medical intervention respects the dignity of persons when it seeks to assist the conjugal act either in order to facilitate its performance or in order to enable it to achieve its objective once it has been normally performed" (DV II, 7). In the case of IUI, IVF, and other techniques, "the medical act is not, as it should be, at the service of conjugal union but rather appropriates to itself the procreative function and thus contradicts the dignity and the inalienable rights of the spouses and of the child to be born" (ibid.).

United in prayer and hope in God's generosity, couples who use IUI and IVF feel as if their struggle with infertility has brought them closer to each other and to God. For this reason, perhaps, the artificial.aspects of IUI and IVF seem less important than whether the use of these techniques is accompanied by a prayerful attitude. As the authors of Empty Arms argue, "One can use 'unnatural' treatments and still demonstrate trust in God." Yet by enabling a third partynamely, the doctorto intervene, these couples, albeit inadvertently, are impeding their union as man and wife. Donum Vitae counsels that these techniques betray the spouses' "right to become a father and mother only through each other" (DV II, 1).

Such impediments also disrupt the couples' relationship with God and the child they hope to conceive. As the author of life, God begets each one of us "in secret" (Ps. 139:15). According to Scripture, this is his right alone (Eccl. 11:5). Sure, God is acting when a man and woman conceive a child outside of the natural order, but his hand is being forced. In such cases, God is present only permissively rather than actively. But every baby has the right to be given as a gift, a blessing bestowed according to the natural means established by God in accord with his perfect timing.

This is not to deny that babies produced through IUI and IVF are just as cute, loved, and wonderful as any other children. The joy they bring to their parents is also just as real, if not more intense. This happiness, though, comes at the expense of the babies who have been denied the right to be conceived through a personal act. Needless to say, children created through artificial techniques are persons; they have eternal souls. Once conceived they also have a right to be loved and protected by their parents and society. Still, no one would say that every act that results in the conception of a child is morally licit. Rape, for instance, may also result in the conception of a child
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OnlyForNow
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AG
I can tell you that successful pregnancies are a gift from God, based on how many poor genetic pairings people see when they do genetic testing on embryos.

The majority of embryos (egg and sperm both of which were selected by scientists) that are viable is less than those which do not have defects, many of which will result in a non-viable pregnancy.

I am legend
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I reject this reasoning as it makes no sense that modern medicine wouldn't be rejecting the natural order. This entire argument seems to come through and ignorant thought process that places ridiculous importance on a natural process that is massively prone to failure.
Kool
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AG
Take out the word "ignorant", and you find yourself at the same point as many practicing Catholics, including myself at one point. But it is hard to argue, in my opinion, that placing a medical professional into the direct process of uniting egg and sperm raises the potential for malfeasance and can create a God-like attitude. Not so with removing a diseased body part, suturing a laceration, attacking a malignancy, etc.
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I am legend
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Kool said:

Take out the word "ignorant", and you find yourself at the same point as many practicing Catholics, including myself at one point. But it is hard to argue, in my opinion, that placing a medical professional into the direct process of uniting egg and sperm raises the potential for malfeasance and can create a God-like attitude. Not so with removing a diseased body part, suturing a laceration, attacking a malignancy, etc.


Doing it god's way means more dead babies.
Kool
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AG
I won't agree there. IVF starts with hyperstimulation of the ovaries in order to significantly increase the number of ova available for fertilization. The denominator in IVF, and in effect the number of aborted fetuses, is nearly always increased with IVF. Other than in the case of a blocked Fallopian tube, or an acrosomal sperm abnormality, hyper-stimulating an ovary, vacuum removal and freezing and thawing of ova (usually), transfer of typically frozen and thawed sperm, then reimplantation of embryos vastly increases failed implantation. Because of the hyperstimulation, n increases and sometimes successful pregnancy ensues and that is what the IVF industry advertises. But ask a NICU nurse about what happens next upon successful transfer and implantation of multiple embryos. And Google Selective Reduction after IVF and give it a thought.

Edit to add link
http://www.lifenews.com/2011/09/06/pro-life-concerns-about-ivf-include-abortion-exploitation/
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I am legend
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If you're a woman who is effectively infertile you can have god's abortions over and over again or you can do IVF and limit the babies that die in your futile effort to produce naturally.,
OnlyForNow
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AG
Y'all both know you have correct points but will never see eye to eye on this right?
Kool
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AG
I am having a difficult time coming up with a medical condition which would make a woman spontaneously abort multiple times, but which would be remedied by hyperstimulating her ovaries, removing multiple ova, injecting frozen then thawed sperm, then reimplanting these embryos into her uterus, which would NOT be remedied by another method, and which would result in a net reduction in aborted embryos. Poor egg quality, poor sperm quality, a blocked Fallopian tube, uterine fibroids, etc., none of these conditions would meet the above.
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OnlyForNow
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AG
Hostile uterus in Laymans terms typically result in lots of lost embryos but egg and sperm pairing is not a problem.

Just saying...
Kool
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AG
Is the plan then not to place said embryo into said hostile uterus? Why would the outcome be any different at that point, other than instead of one embryo or in very rare instances two embryos, multiple will be placed?
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OnlyForNow
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AG
I meant people trying naturally who are against any sort of medical Intervention.

They'll never have a successful pregnancy but continue and continue to try.

15 unsuccessful attempts naturally...
Mr. Popo
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I've lived this **** for the passed 6 months. We ended up with two 5 day blastocysts. Our first one implanted and died after a few days. The second didn't implant at all.
The process is extremely physically and emotionally draining.
Personally, I see life beginning after implantation rather than conception. A ball of a few hundred cells rolling around in a uterus has the potential for life, just like a bowl of eggs, butter, flour, and sugar has the potential to be a cake. I'm a confirmed Lutheran, but I beliebe in science.
OnlyForNow
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AG
I'll keep your family in my prayers.
Kool
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AG
I wish you and your family nothing but the best.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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