Orthodox (k2aggie)

14,766 Views | 166 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by PacifistAg
PacifistAg
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AG
I couldn't really find a thread to post this question on, so I decided to create a new one. I'm directing this towards k2 since he's the only Orthodox Christian here of which I'm aware. Others can feel free to chime in though if they have valid input. I wanted to ask this because there are few posters I respect as much as k2, and if he's a reflection of his denomination, then it certainly has me intrigued.

Can you explain the differences between the Orthodox and Catholicism? Do the Orthodox hold Mary in the same esteem as Catholics? What about Protestants? Key differences?

Now, with a more narrow focus, can you tell me about your specific church. I am very interested in visiting, but have never gone to an Orthodox church before. What could I expect? I have an autistic son that can pose a challenge and struggles with "structure". How is your church at handling children w/ special needs? I know my last church really began to struggle at this and, for someone like my son, it kind of soured him on church.

Now, I'm not looking for a Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant cage match to the death here. Please keep things respectful. If you disagree with the comments one makes about your particular "avenue" of Christianity, I ask that you let it roll off your back. In short, I just want this to be a mutually respectful dialogue and to not devolve into sectarian bickering.
Frok
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I'd be curious to know about your son but I don't have the ability to PM. I have a daughter with special needs so I understand that struggle.
PacifistAg
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Frok said:

I'd be curious to know about your son but I don't have the ability to PM. I have a daughter with special needs so I understand that struggle.
Sure. I'm pretty open about it so you can feel free to ask questions here, or email me at christianpacifist@hotmail.com.

My son is 11. How old is your daughter? Have you found that it's harder for her to accept matters of faith? For my son, it's hard because in his mind he sees these biblical stories as just stories. Similar to Harry Potter. He's very logical in how he thinks, so the concepts of miracles, spirituality, etc is a struggle for him.
Frok
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My daughter is only 4 so the situation much more basic. She's 4 but acts like a 2 year old due to a genetic condition that we still haven't diagnosed. So the issues I run into are people that don't know how to handle my daughter. My home church is great because they all know her. But its tough when you go somewhere else.

(Anyhow, sorry to derail your thread)



PacifistAg
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AG
No need for the apologies. We started noticing the differences in our son about that age. Please do feel free to email me if you wish to discuss further.
jkag89
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Quote:

Do the Orthodox hold Mary in the same esteem as Catholics?
Yep

Quote:

I am very interested in visiting, but have never gone to an Orthodox church before. What could I expect?
How could you have brought us to this insane place? - Not for Lightweights: A Baptist Preacher Goes to Church: Part 1

The TexAgs thread I started when I first stumbled across this piece, unfortunately the links no longer work.
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
I'm glad you started this thread as one of the things I have enjoyed most on this board is gaining a better understanding of the core differences between the various sects of Christianity. Also though, your description of an "Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant cage match to the death" gave me the mental picture of one of the old MTV Celebrity Deathmatches with religious leaders from each and I got quite the chuckle out of it.

And to your experiences with your son, as an Engineer and a very analytical person those concepts are things I have struggled with myself (not saying my experience is the same as autistic, just a similar faith struggle) and what has impacted my faith the most in that has been actual experiences and encounters in my life with the tangible power of God. Being able to anchor my faith in the power of God rather than being able to prove the historicity of the bible has been a huge growth process for me. On the special needs side, it may not be helpful at all, but I know my church here in Houston (Houston's First Baptist) has invested considerable time and resources into their special needs ministry. I have not personally experienced it but have heard good things, and they may be able to connect you with people who have had similar experiences as yourself or point towards some good resources.

PacifistAg
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Quote:

Also though, your description of an "Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant cage match to the death" gave me the mental picture of one of the old MTV Celebrity Deathmatches with religious leaders from each and I got quite the chuckle out of it.
That was the exact same mental image I got when I typed that sentence.

Zobel
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AG
Hey, I saw this but I am a little tied up at the moment. I'll try to write something up this afternoon.
Zobel
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RetiredAg said:

Can you explain the differences between the Orthodox and Catholicism? Do the Orthodox hold Mary in the same esteem as Catholics? What about Protestants? Key differences?
Basically we were one Church until 1054, and practically a bit longer than that. However, the seeds of variance in tradition and theology were sowed fairly early east and west.

On the superficial level, the Latins have a pope and we do not. We don't recognize any clergy structure other than the three levels of diaconate, priesthood, and bishop. We don't think he or any other man act as God's vicar or the leader of the Church. Christ alone is our leader, the High Priest of our faith, and He alone guides, directs, heals, etc. the Church through the personal activity of the Holy Spirit. Bishops act in place and as a type of Christ, but are not personally infallible or even collectively infallible. The Church itself is infallible as far as it is "the Body of Christ" and is "the Pillar and Foundation of Truth". Of course the Church includes both the clergy and the laity, so together we collectively inherit these guarantees as one body.

The variances in let's say philosophical theology lead to some unfortunate distinctions in practice and separation from the safeguards of patristic wisdom, theology, experience, and philosophical language used to safely express ineffable divine truth. This is reflected in a lot of ways, whether you look at the rise of the filioque controversy (a local effort to combat heresy expressed in unsafe philosophical language with unacceptable theological consequences), the rise of rationalism as a means to approach God vs a one-way divine revelation, or the changes in church structure, praxis (practice or process), and so forth.

On a day-to-day level this really means that in Orthodoxy we see our faith as experiential and not rational. We see God as ineffable and unknowable in His Being or Essence, but experiential in His Grace or Energy. Grace is a participation in the Divine. The life centers around participation in the mysteries of God, which we don't limit to seven sacraments but instead recognize as any means of divine reception God's grace in our lives.

///////////

We do not have the same place for Mary (the Theotokos or "God-birther" lit. the person who gave birth to God). She is a unique person in the history of mankind, she has a once-in-time title in scripture of "Kecharitomene". This is a hapax legomenon, a one time made up word for a specific purpose: the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of the verb for to be endowed with grace. So when the Theotokos was greeted by Gabriel she was already endowed with grace.

In Orthodox icons Mary represents alternately we the faithful and the Church. You'll see in icons Christ looking to her, and she looks to you. In the typical icon, you see just as Christ comes to us (Mary is us) and we are called to join to the body of Christ and are ministered to by the Church (Mary in the Church). In the icon of the Nativity, for example, she looks at Joseph who is doubting or wondering or being tempted (just as the Church witnesses to us in our human weakness).

We ask for her prayers to save us (in a Liturgy you'll hear "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" many times) in the same use of the word "save" in 1 Corinthians 7:16.

However, the Orthodox do not on the other hand hold to the Latin dogma of the immaculate conception. Mary is not a co-Redemtrix with Christ, who alone and exclusively is our Savior and Redeemer, the Great Physician, etc.

///////////

We have a different soteriology than the Western church, especially later formulations such as those expressed by Anselm of Canterbury. The whole Western debate over merits is peculiar and confusing to me. In many ways, Protestants are closer to Catholics than we are to either one. So when it comes to Protestants, the entire notion of the solas, the means and modes of salvation and really what it even means to be saved are so far apart you almost have to spend a long time in mutual definitions before you can discuss in a way that makes sense.

For us, salvation begins and ends in union with God. The Gospel is that we can know God. Not merely that Christ is Risen but that in Him we can be like Him. For us, salvation is deification, as expressed by St Irenaus He "became what we are in order to make us what He is Himself". St Athanasius said "Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life."

It's not payable on death, it's payable now. Theosis or divinization is a process that we enter into on this side of eternity.

This is the common inheritance of Christianity east and west that was almost completely lost by the rational fruit of the medieval scholastic movement and later the enlightenment. I find it to be uniquely preserved in Orthodoxy.
Zobel
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Quote:

Now, with a more narrow focus, can you tell me about your specific church. I am very interested in visiting, but have never gone to an Orthodox church before. What could I expect? I have an autistic son that can pose a challenge and struggles with "structure". How is your church at handling children w/ special needs? I know my last church really began to struggle at this and, for someone like my son, it kind of soured him on church.
I go to St Joseph in Houston. Going to a divine liturgy is very different than probably anything you've been to. It's like having a very structured gathering, except in the living room of your house with your whole extended family. It's very organic, there's a lot of motion. We cross ourselves at mention of the Trinity and we bow sometimes. So it's structured, but like two-stepping at The Hall (RIP) more than a dance in a renaissance court.

You can read along the whole service in the book. It's entirely chanted / sung, a capella, between the choir, chanter, priest, and deacon (and the laity). We stand for pretty much the whole service (except the epistle reading and the homily). There's incense burned.

Our church is almost 100% in English. We do say the occasional Kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy) but that's about it. Oh yeah... you'll hear Lord have Mercy about a zillion times.

We have a cry room and the back 1/3 of the church is basically families with small kids. Oh, yeah -- no Sunday school, no multiple services. Communion is an inherently and essentially community act, we do it together from the smallest to the tallest, old and young alike. One liturgy per altar per day. So if your kid makes noise, the odds that he will bother anyone or be the only one is low.

Services start around 9 with Orthros, and then it flows directly into the Liturgy at 10ish. After the liturgy there's a coffee hour in the parish hall. Eating together after is really an extension of the Eucharistic feast, a tradition of the agape feast as old as the Church.

DO:
follow along in the prayer book
stand, if you are able
as a lady, cover your head if you feel so inclined (no one will fuss if you don't)
cross yourself at father son and holy spirit (up down right to left, not left to right)
bows (metanias) at the thrice-holy prayers and when the priest blesses the people / you
get antidoron (blessed bread) at the end of the service
kiss the cross and priests hand when you go (we kiss his right hand as the hand that handles the Eucharist, not because he's royal or something)
stay for coffee hour after

DONT:
sing if you don't know the tunes
sit during the reading of the gospel
take communion if you are not Orthodox (baptized / chrismated) or have not prepared (prayer, fasting, almsgiving, recent confession)

Let me know if you want to come, I'll sit with you and tell you what's going on.
PacifistAg
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AG
Thank you so much for the info. I'll need to talk to my wife, but it's definitely something I'm interested in.
TheFirebird
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

Quote:

Now, with a more narrow focus, can you tell me about your specific church. I am very interested in visiting, but have never gone to an Orthodox church before. What could I expect? I have an autistic son that can pose a challenge and struggles with "structure". How is your church at handling children w/ special needs? I know my last church really began to struggle at this and, for someone like my son, it kind of soured him on church.
I go to St Joseph in Houston. Going to a divine liturgy is very different than probably anything you've been to. It's like having a very structured gathering, except in the living room of your house with your whole extended family. It's very organic, there's a lot of motion. We cross ourselves at mention of the Trinity and we bow sometimes. So it's structured, but like two-stepping at The Hall (RIP) more than a dance in a renaissance court.

You can read along the whole service in the book. It's entirely chanted / sung, a capella, between the choir, chanter, priest, and deacon (and the laity). We stand for pretty much the whole service (except the epistle reading and the homily). There's incense burned.

Our church is almost 100% in English. We do say the occasional Kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy) but that's about it. Oh yeah... you'll hear Lord have Mercy about a zillion times.

We have a cry room and the back 1/3 of the church is basically families with small kids. Oh, yeah -- no Sunday school, no multiple services. Communion is an inherently and essentially community act, we do it together from the smallest to the tallest, old and young alike. One liturgy per altar per day. So if your kid makes noise, the odds that he will bother anyone or be the only one is low.

Services start around 9 with Orthros, and then it flows directly into the Liturgy at 10ish. After the liturgy there's a coffee hour in the parish hall. Eating together after is really an extension of the Eucharistic feast, a tradition of the agape feast as old as the Church.

DO:
follow along in the prayer book
stand, if you are able
as a lady, cover your head if you feel so inclined (no one will fuss if you don't)
cross yourself at father son and holy spirit (up down right to left, not left to right)
bows (metanias) at the thrice-holy prayers and when the priest blesses the people / you
get antidoron (blessed bread) at the end of the service
kiss the cross and priests hand when you go (we kiss his right hand as the hand that handles the Eucharist, not because he's royal or something)
stay for coffee hour after

DONT:
sing if you don't know the tunes
sit during the reading of the gospel
take communion if you are not Orthodox (baptized / chrismated) or have not prepared (prayer, fasting, almsgiving, recent confession)

Let me know if you want to come, I'll sit with you and tell you what's going on.
SIT??? As a ROCOR parishioner, I demand to know what sort of heresy this is you are propagating

To the OP's question about his child-- I am not an expert on autism specific issues,but as the dad of two under five I can speak to kids in Church. Your mileage may vary based on what Orthodox parish you attend.

1. In the Russian church, we stand. All of the service, about two hours. In some ways this is good. If the church is not crowded, the little ones can wander about. Let's go kiss the icons! Let's look at this fresco. See what the priest is doing now! Smell the incense? Now it's time for "Our Father" - let's say it.

But it is also a long service. Little feet get tired, little people get cranky. To be honest, we (and other families) rarely are able to do the full boat liturgy, we often come in around the Gospel reading.

2. Much depends on the parish makeup. In our experience, the Russian speaking services are not good for kids. Well meaning babushkas, in the good Russian tradition, are happy to critique your parenting skills vocally and often. They are unlikely to be very enlightened with regards to autism or other issues. We find the English service, with more converts, more families, and less of a crowd to be more our speed.

I have heard of similar dynamics at other strongly "ethinic" parishes.

PacifistAg
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AG
Thanks for that info. Standing for 2 hours?! Yeah, doubt we'll take the kiddos to that type.
TheFirebird
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RetiredAg said:

Thanks for that info. Standing for 2 hours?! Yeah, doubt we'll take the kiddos to that type.
You'd be surprised what kids can do when it is just "the thing we do." Honestly, our five year old can hack it most days as long as there is a potty break. The 2.5 year old? Not a chance, but then again, two year olds are all basically cavemen with no impulse control.
Zobel
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AG
Agree with the above. Sorry if I wasn't clear - sitting during the service is the exception, not the rule. But when it's all you know, there's no problem. My three year old stands for most of the service. He also will want to be held a bit, or walk around. We usually go take a break to see the icons or use the bathroom or something. Heck, he even was awake for the entire Paschal service (10 pm -1+ am) and stayed awake for the party after!

The standing is a huge part -- maybe THE part -- of why it feels so natural and organic. People are up, no one will notice or care if you walk back to the back for a bit. My son and I basically talk about the service for most of the time, just like FireBird says. "Look, the priest is about to bless us! Yes, he said Jesus, can you find an icon of Jesus? Yes, bubba, that is the Theotokos" etc.

It's a lot like fasting. When you don't know, it sounds daunting. When you've done it regularly for a few years and people say "man there's no way I can go that long without a cheeseburger!" you just shrug. They can, you can, you just don't realize it.

jkag89
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Quote:

You'd be surprised what kids can do when it is just "the thing we do."
Exactly. Of course us Catholics usually don't have 2 hour services unless they decide to read the entire bulletin as part of the announcements just before the end of mass. (Sorry a pet peeve of mine)
Quote:

In some ways this is good. If the church is not crowded, the little ones can wander about. Let's go kiss the icons! Let's look at this fresco. See what the priest is doing now! Smell the incense? Now it's time for "Our Father" - let's say it.
Love this description. See many of the families with young children do similar things at my parish to keep them involved in the service in their own little ways.
AgLiving06
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For those interested, there was an AMA (ask me anything) post on Reddit yesterday for Orthodox Christians that had some good discussion:


https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/6i673w/eastern_orthodox_ama/?st=j45neto3&sh=e4b95136
UTExan
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At what point in the service does the altar call occur?
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
AgLiving06
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K2 - Have you ever visited St. George in Houston? I'm thinking of visiting there and curious to see what you knew about it.
jkag89
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UTExan said:

At what point in the service does the altar call occur?
When the congregation comes up to receive the Eucharist!
Serotonin
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

K2 - Have you ever visited St. George in Houston? I'm thinking of visiting there and curious to see what you knew about it.
I believe that is the church that planted his current church.
Zobel
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AG
Yes, I have, several times. It's a lovely church!

I've been to several of the orthodox churches in Houston at one time or another. We're all one church!
UTExan
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jkag89 said:

UTExan said:

At what point in the service does the altar call occur?
When the congregation comes up to receive the Eucharist!
Ha! That is what a former Methodist pastor of mine used to say when we took weekly communion (weekly communion itself was strange for many visiting Methodists).
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Quote:

Thanks for that info. Standing for 2 hours?! Yeah, doubt we'll take the kiddos to that type.

What kind of Aggie are you? IF YOU CAN STAND DURING THE GAME YOU CAN STAND DURING CHURCH!!!!!
AgLiving06
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I attend St. George today.

I'd spent enough time reading up on Orthodox Liturgy that I had a decent idea of what was going to be going on.

It was definitely a very beautiful service and I had my son with me (8 month old) and he loved looking around. The chanting eventually put him to sleep.

I'm not sure how I feel after being home now about the whole experience.

I think it was hindered by two things:

1. I obviously had no idea what was being said. I knew enough to know my response most of the time was "Lord have Mercy," but beyond that I was pretty lost. I tried opening the book, but never seemed to figure out where they were.

2. I knew that Orthodox show up late, I just didn't realize how uncomfortable it would make me, especially since I was sitting in the back. Maybe if I wasn't in such a prominent place I wouldn't have noticed, but I guess I was left wondering what they could possibly be getting out of the service if they just come and go?
Zobel
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AG
The Liturgy is always the same, with the exception of the hymns and troparia of the day. So, not knowing what's being said is a temporary thing. A lot of the prayers said by the priest are said quietly, so they're harder to follow (and you're not necessarily required to).

The role of the laity in the service is to pray along with the clergy. The priest is not special as much as he is the team captain. He leads us in prayer, and our prayers reinforce his. This is one thing I like about the Orthodoxy style - priest has his back to the people, because he's with them, facing the same way.

If I recall, St George also uses a mixture of Arabic in their service, so it's -very- difficult to follow (as I imagine any service would be if you didn't speak the language?).

As for two, yes, a lot do. This is a cultural thing, and I agree, it can be distracting. But you probably also showed up "late" in a way - Orthros starts at 9, and there's no break between the two services. People ought to not approach the chalice if they arrive after the gospel reading.

But one point you said may be indicative of the difference in your attitude and the orthodox mind. If you asked an orthodox person what they "got out" of the service I suspect the response would be confusion, at first. If pressed, I think my reaction would be "communion". We aren't there to learn, although we do learn. We are there to worship, but that's not so much what you "get out". The whole purpose is communion. Our faith is a feeding faith, we receive grace in the mysteries. Everything else is secondary.

Edit -- come to St Joseph, and let me know when you're coming. I think you'd find it interesting how different each parish can "feel". Ours is convert heavy and all-English, and we use a mix of Byzantine and Russian music. Makes a big difference.
FTAggies
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Went to mass in spanish, didnt understand it all but my baptist gf asked what I "got out of it" if I couldn't understand it all. It's def a ex catholic protestant mentality about being "fed." Worship for them is about learning something through a good/inspirational message and good music.
AgLiving06
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I thought about going to St. Joseph today, but it is a bit farther (and a toll road) for me. My wife wasn't thrilled that I went today and that may delay me going again for a couple weeks. On the plus side, St. Joseph is near her uncle which may make her want to go that direction.

The liturgy was primarily English (from what I could tell), but when it did switch to Arabic, it was pretty clear when they changed languages (different choir) and so that was actually not as confusing as it could have been.

You make an interesting point about the Liturgy being about worship and not learning. I guess from a Protestant background, that's what you come to expect. It does raise of a question of "when do Orthodox learn about the Bible?"

Btw, how many people attend St. Joseph? One of my wife's comments early on when we visited St. George was just about the overall size/people that would be there and how she wanted something more intimate.
Zobel
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AG
We learn about the Bible in the services. Properly if you read the canons the litmus test for the canon of scripture is whether or not it is fit to be read in church. So in a way the liturgy defines scripture, not the other way around. Of course many folks only go on Sunday, but there's a massive amount of scripture in the orthodox services during the week as well. Almost all of the liturgy is a quote of scripture.

St Jospeh has 100 families or so as members. It's quite a bit smaller than St George.
Zobel
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AG
To expand - the orthodox are also implored to study the scriptures personally. You can see this in many of the patristics writings. St John Chrysostom asks his parishioners to read the scriptures beforehand to better prepare for the service and homily, for example.

We also do bible study groups and church school for the kids, family night on Wednesdays after vespers.

The homily is there to exhort and teach, of course. It's just not the primary point of the service.
AgLiving06
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I guess this is the biggest mindset change that I need to think about.

I'm so used to walking in and getting a lesson (verse by verse usually) that it's a mindset change to think that you will read scripture, but not analyze it during that setting. That there are other times for that.
Zobel
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AG
I think it's one level deeper than that. St Maximos says that Christ and the scriptures are like the patriarch Joseph and his robe. If we seek the scriptures we need to be careful not to grab onto the robe like Potiphar's wife, while Joseph remained beyond. He also says the scriptures are like Christ's robe in the transfiguration - white and shining, but still not Him.

We go to Liturgy to commune with God, to "become partakers of the divine nature". Partaker is koinonos, the same word that we derive the word communion from. We go to commune with the divine nature. In orthodoxy we believe that this communion is found in any receipt of grace - by crossing oneself, by praying, by confessing our sins - but at it's pinnacle in Holy Communion.

Learning about the scripture intellectually is grabbing at the empty robe. Spiritual knowledge comes from Christ.
AgLiving06
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Complete one off from your comment, but I did notice that people were reaching out to touch the Father's robes as they walked by. I'm assuming it has something to do with people reaching out to touch the robes of the Apostles in the Bible?
Zobel
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AG
So, there's a lot of motion and symbolism in the Liturgy, and a lot of it happens behind the iconostasis.

Before the liturgy there is another short service where the priest takes the gifts to be offered and moves them to the table of offering. Before the great entrance the priest censes them and the deacon and priest carry them through the north door, and around and into the royal doors. This motion represents Christ's coming in humility, but ascending into heaven royally (the space behind the iconostasis represents heaven). The priest then enters the royal doors with the gifts and places them on the altar, and the service continues. The gifts are offered to God "thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all..." Right before communion there's the invocation and the priest says the "holy things are for the holy" before the communion prayers and the preparation of the gifts for communion.

So during the great entrance the priest is carrying the preconsecrated gifts, it's very normal to touch their robes for a blessing. I've seen several explanations for this tradition , but generally the jist is as you said.
 
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